Discussion
And another question while I'm at it.
I know this subject has been raised many times before but could we look at them from a pro and con viewpoint. G50 52 5 speed versus Getrag 6 Speed.
I do not want to go to the complexity and lack of support of another make of box so can we leave those out of this thread please.
I'll start with what little I know. Please add your thoughts.
(They are to be mated to an LS7 of between 550 and 700 hp and about 500lbs)
G50 52
Pros
Simple and relatively cheap (if you can get one)
Rod linkage shift supported by the factory.
Easy to get parts for and a number of companies with repair/mod knowledge
Cons
Only 5 speeds and limited top speed
Torque limited unless rebuilt with stronger internals.
Getrag
Pros
Higher top speed straight from the box?
Rated to a higher torque level.
More relaxed top gear cruising
Cons
More expensive
Does the car need 6 speeds?
Fewer "experts" and more expensive to rebuild/modify.
I know this subject has been raised many times before but could we look at them from a pro and con viewpoint. G50 52 5 speed versus Getrag 6 Speed.
I do not want to go to the complexity and lack of support of another make of box so can we leave those out of this thread please.
I'll start with what little I know. Please add your thoughts.
(They are to be mated to an LS7 of between 550 and 700 hp and about 500lbs)
G50 52
Pros
Simple and relatively cheap (if you can get one)
Rod linkage shift supported by the factory.
Easy to get parts for and a number of companies with repair/mod knowledge
Cons
Only 5 speeds and limited top speed
Torque limited unless rebuilt with stronger internals.
Getrag
Pros
Higher top speed straight from the box?
Rated to a higher torque level.
More relaxed top gear cruising
Cons
More expensive
Does the car need 6 speeds?
Fewer "experts" and more expensive to rebuild/modify.
The G50-52 along with g50-50 are the turbo box models and both very capable in terms of torque and potential top speed as they are the only G50 models fitted with the Porsche large C-W-P . Not to be confused with stock g50-00/01/03 etc which are lower geared and torque rated. As you say, if you can find one!....those two models are very sought after and usually carry a premium even as a rebuild donor!
All the porsche transaxles can run cable change, centre or side mounted lever. Have a look at cableshift.com
All the porsche transaxles can run cable change, centre or side mounted lever. Have a look at cableshift.com
the car actually is ok with 2-5 speed, the first one is good for making donuts.
I am very interested in this cableshift conversion, at the price they are selling it I will skip the painful process and make
one myself. Does anyone have one installed with a G50 long nose ?
I would be very interested to hear if the shifter can be mounted easily in the Ultima ?
thanks
I am very interested in this cableshift conversion, at the price they are selling it I will skip the painful process and make
one myself. Does anyone have one installed with a G50 long nose ?
I would be very interested to hear if the shifter can be mounted easily in the Ultima ?
thanks
The G50 'box has a vast range of available gears sets from aftermarket 'box builders.
The Getrag is very difficult to modify/repair so there are very few 'box builders who will touch them. I believe the difference is that the G50 gears are either splined or pressed onto the shafts whereas the Getrag are machined as a gear and shaft as one item or the gears are fitted using a combination of heating and freezing the mating parts. This is a very sound manufacturing process but gives no consideration for service and repair.
There is so much torque on hand that you don't actually need more than 4 gears when using a mid range engine power. When you go to the higher end engine power you would be better off with 5 or 6 gears to minimise the torque load on the 'box. It would be advisable to get the whole gear set tuned to your power range.
You could fit a tall 5th gear for just motorway cruising. This replacement gear pair live in the very back housing of the 'box and can be replaced even with the 'box still in the car. This is the same housing and gear pair for 6th in a six speed 'box. If 200+mph is your goal then you may want to consider the six speed and have a builder modify the 'box so that you get a better spread of ratios otherwise the large jump to the tall sixth gear may drop you below your engines ideal power band. You will then have to wait for it to build up and hope you don't run out of road. When Lucky tried this gear set his engine could not cope with being so far below the power band. 700hp should be able to make the grade.
Steve
The Getrag is very difficult to modify/repair so there are very few 'box builders who will touch them. I believe the difference is that the G50 gears are either splined or pressed onto the shafts whereas the Getrag are machined as a gear and shaft as one item or the gears are fitted using a combination of heating and freezing the mating parts. This is a very sound manufacturing process but gives no consideration for service and repair.
There is so much torque on hand that you don't actually need more than 4 gears when using a mid range engine power. When you go to the higher end engine power you would be better off with 5 or 6 gears to minimise the torque load on the 'box. It would be advisable to get the whole gear set tuned to your power range.
You could fit a tall 5th gear for just motorway cruising. This replacement gear pair live in the very back housing of the 'box and can be replaced even with the 'box still in the car. This is the same housing and gear pair for 6th in a six speed 'box. If 200+mph is your goal then you may want to consider the six speed and have a builder modify the 'box so that you get a better spread of ratios otherwise the large jump to the tall sixth gear may drop you below your engines ideal power band. You will then have to wait for it to build up and hope you don't run out of road. When Lucky tried this gear set his engine could not cope with being so far below the power band. 700hp should be able to make the grade.
Steve
Steve is right, I have a taller 5th gear in my box, 0,756 and there is indeed a drop when changing from 4th to 5th but not as drastic that it will
bother you.
I have been joining the expert while chaning the 5th gear set, clearly something you should not attempt without the right tools !
He used very special tools to lift the gears from the shaft !
I am driving my car on the road and the only time I need the taller 5 th is on the highway, on countryroads you will not need any higher than the 4th
which is already good for > 200km/hour or 125 mph with my LS7. I agree with Steve on the G50, it is easy to install, to repair and fully supported by the factory.
Now we only need a good cable shift system for the box and then no need to look any further.
bother you.
I have been joining the expert while chaning the 5th gear set, clearly something you should not attempt without the right tools !
He used very special tools to lift the gears from the shaft !
I am driving my car on the road and the only time I need the taller 5 th is on the highway, on countryroads you will not need any higher than the 4th
which is already good for > 200km/hour or 125 mph with my LS7. I agree with Steve on the G50, it is easy to install, to repair and fully supported by the factory.
Now we only need a good cable shift system for the box and then no need to look any further.
Edited by spatz on Monday 28th December 15:26
ive got a g50/52 box in mine and was told by the factory not to mess with the ratios as they are perfect the way they are.. It has lsd as standard
my fifth gear is the gear most replace on their g50/03 to get to 200mph..
expensive box,very expensive as mine was brand new when the car was built but works straight out of the box and you wont want to play with the ratios in the furture....
Dom
my fifth gear is the gear most replace on their g50/03 to get to 200mph..
expensive box,very expensive as mine was brand new when the car was built but works straight out of the box and you wont want to play with the ratios in the furture....
Dom
you have it the wrong way around...
The G50/52 is stronger than the Getrag and has better ratios resulting in a higher top speed... the benefit of the Getrag is it is cable shift and more modern and thus much nicer gearchange. Getrag is difficult to rebuild and Im not sure better ratios are available yet.
Your unlikelly to find a G50/52 for less than a Getrag (if you can find one at all).
edited to add that Id now way put a std 996 Getrag on an LS7 with that much power, you will have to look at the G96 Getrags which are basically Getrag gearboxs but with large G50 internals... plenty of these have gone into Ultimas but these are more expensive and pretty rare.
The G50/52 is stronger than the Getrag and has better ratios resulting in a higher top speed... the benefit of the Getrag is it is cable shift and more modern and thus much nicer gearchange. Getrag is difficult to rebuild and Im not sure better ratios are available yet.
Your unlikelly to find a G50/52 for less than a Getrag (if you can find one at all).
edited to add that Id now way put a std 996 Getrag on an LS7 with that much power, you will have to look at the G96 Getrags which are basically Getrag gearboxs but with large G50 internals... plenty of these have gone into Ultimas but these are more expensive and pretty rare.
Edited by andygtt on Monday 28th December 14:07
no not at all, but I would like to know and hear comments of somebody installing this in his ultima already, I have great doubts that the shifter
will fit between the seats, as I already had to modify the factory rod, because it was fouling with the seats. I installed my seats closer to the center as I need them to travel to the bulkead. In case of the canam a body tube is fouling with the seat which requires different mounting position closer to the center.
Has anybody tried to install this cableshift shifter in front of the original factory bracket ?
thanks
will fit between the seats, as I already had to modify the factory rod, because it was fouling with the seats. I installed my seats closer to the center as I need them to travel to the bulkead. In case of the canam a body tube is fouling with the seat which requires different mounting position closer to the center.
Has anybody tried to install this cableshift shifter in front of the original factory bracket ?
thanks
Lots more questions I'm afraid.
Why are people looking for a cable shift rather than a rod linkage shift? Can the cable shift be fitted to the R/H position as with a rod linkage in a R/H drive car?
Will the Porsche cable linkage fit an Ultima with the Getrag box or does it have to be an after-market system. Could one use the Porsche cable shift mechanism and just replace the cables with longer ones (as I assume they are too short).
Would a Boxter have a cable shift that could be used (not the Boxter box but just the shift mechanism)?
With the standard G50 52 is first gear usable or is it only needed for low speed maneuvers? Do others change the final drive ratio to raise top speed and give better motorway cruising or is this not possible?
Is the G96 Getrag a 6 speed box and does it have a LSD?
Why are people looking for a cable shift rather than a rod linkage shift? Can the cable shift be fitted to the R/H position as with a rod linkage in a R/H drive car?
Will the Porsche cable linkage fit an Ultima with the Getrag box or does it have to be an after-market system. Could one use the Porsche cable shift mechanism and just replace the cables with longer ones (as I assume they are too short).
Would a Boxter have a cable shift that could be used (not the Boxter box but just the shift mechanism)?
With the standard G50 52 is first gear usable or is it only needed for low speed maneuvers? Do others change the final drive ratio to raise top speed and give better motorway cruising or is this not possible?
Is the G96 Getrag a 6 speed box and does it have a LSD?
Through the various models (even within the G50 range) there are differing types of gearlinkage, as many of the boxes are physically different in size and location of shifter, as well as shift pattern (due to their internal linkage layout). So it may well be possible to adapt a boxter gear linkage to your chosen transaxle but could well involve some engineering/headscratching. If you look on cableshift.com under products section, you will see the many versions of linkage, also go onto california motorsports site.......most types of porsche transaxle are pictured.
1st gear is really only required for parking.
As has been pointed out the g50-50 and g50-52 already have tall gearing (including 5th @ 200+)
The fifth mods are usually carried out to g50-00 or g50-03 versions.
Gearsets are available from Albins gear AU, including CWP set's (final drive)
1st gear is really only required for parking.
As has been pointed out the g50-50 and g50-52 already have tall gearing (including 5th @ 200+)
The fifth mods are usually carried out to g50-00 or g50-03 versions.
Gearsets are available from Albins gear AU, including CWP set's (final drive)
Edited by 738 driver on Monday 28th December 17:42
Getrags are all cable shift and 6 speed from the porsche 996 (which is a model of the 911)... there are effectivelly 2 versions you can use... the usual standard 996 version and the rare G96 version.... these 2 boxs are completelly different in almost every respect and are not interchangeable as even the mounting patern to the blocks are different.
The G96 are found in the GT2, GT3 and turbo... the one you will want is the GT2 box as its perfect gearing out of the box.
The G50 are all rod shift but there are kits to convert to cable shift....
As far as I am aware ALL the cable shifts go in the central possition between the seats and are not sill mounted.
On the Porsche boxs cable shifts are much nicer to use than rod shifts hence its talked about so much... however the rod shift on a G50 certainly isnt terrible.
Finally I know the old 930 (4 speed) box has been talked about as it is very strong and well suited to a chevy, I put one of these in my Ultima and its a great box, but its technically a bit challenging to fit and VERY agricultural to use so IMO If I was you I would avoid this one.
In case you were wondering Im using a G96 box in my current build lol
The G96 are found in the GT2, GT3 and turbo... the one you will want is the GT2 box as its perfect gearing out of the box.
The G50 are all rod shift but there are kits to convert to cable shift....
As far as I am aware ALL the cable shifts go in the central possition between the seats and are not sill mounted.
On the Porsche boxs cable shifts are much nicer to use than rod shifts hence its talked about so much... however the rod shift on a G50 certainly isnt terrible.
Finally I know the old 930 (4 speed) box has been talked about as it is very strong and well suited to a chevy, I put one of these in my Ultima and its a great box, but its technically a bit challenging to fit and VERY agricultural to use so IMO If I was you I would avoid this one.
In case you were wondering Im using a G96 box in my current build lol
Edited by andygtt on Tuesday 29th December 09:17
spatz said:
no not at all, but I would like to know and hear comments of somebody installing this in his ultima already, I have great doubts that the shifter
will fit between the seats, as I already had to modify the factory rod, because it was fouling with the seats. I installed my seats closer to the center as I need them to travel to the bulkead. In case of the canam a body tube is fouling with the seat which requires different mounting position closer to the center.
Has anybody tried to install this cableshift shifter in front of the original factory bracket ?
thanks
I have a CanAm with a G50/52 and center cable shift set up, here's my 2 cents;will fit between the seats, as I already had to modify the factory rod, because it was fouling with the seats. I installed my seats closer to the center as I need them to travel to the bulkead. In case of the canam a body tube is fouling with the seat which requires different mounting position closer to the center.
Has anybody tried to install this cableshift shifter in front of the original factory bracket ?
thanks
In the beginning the shifter was a Renegade Hybrid unit and after much frustration I gave up on it as the cross gate was never enough to get both 5th and reverse, even after some modification. I then switched to a Porsche 996 shifter, which is much better, but still not as good as I'd like. Neither shifter fitted between the seats (I'm not sure any shifter would in the CanAm as I have just under 3 inches between the seats for the reasons you state). The Renegade shift handle was longer and had a dog leg so didn't feel too far away in front of the seats, however the Porsche unit is shorter and straight. At 6'1" I have the seat pretty much all the way back and with the 5 point harness on shifts into 3rd and 5th are a stretch. Shift changes are not as positive and smooth as I'd like and I will be looking to change once again. Current options under consideration are either a CMS (California Motorsports) Billet Shifter or go all out and install the Mastershift system (a H to semi sequential shifter which can be optioned with paddles or a bump shifter).
In talking with the factory they do not support or recommend anything other than the rod shifter and I'm inclined to believe that the rod will provide the best shifting.
Julian
Edited by JoulesCanAm on Wednesday 30th December 05:48
Edited by JoulesCanAm on Wednesday 30th December 05:49
Storer said:
Does anybody know what it costs to have a G96 refurbished or does it depend on what needs doing?
I have a G96 that's been refurbished, the problem I found was that over here (UK) no body was prepared to give any assurance that they could get the box apart without damaging it or even effect a repair (2nd gear syncro had gone, common problem with the G96) In the end I found a company called GBOX in Denver Colorado who would do the repair and guarantee it. All in all it cost around $3600 for the repair, shipping and a couple of other bits I had done to it. I went that route as I had already paid top dollar for the box, had no ''support'' and it was worthless as it stood. All this was around 2 years ago, so there might be someone here who is prepared to take it on now.
The shift is smooth as per a production car (I have installed a short throw shifter to cut down the long throw), the clutch is not too heavy (Porsche item), the shifter is very tight between the seats and does obstruct the seat movement a bit, but I have moved my seat a little to the centre to get a straighter line to the pedals. The big downside to the G96 is gearing, at around 70mph the engine is at 3000rpm with is a bit tiring on a long journey (not to mention expensive)I have found a final drive of 3.00 ($2800)which would bring it down a bit but the box has to be ripped apart again. I have been told that Michelin have a new Cup tyre out that increases the tyre diameter by 2" which would fundamentally be doing the same thing in lowering the revs.....jury still out on this for me at the moment though.
Graham is your box also called a G96?
if so then I have confusing the numbering as Im refering to yours as a std 996 and didnt realise it was also called a G96.... As you know the G96 I have is nothing like yours and unlike yours mine can be as easily rebuilt as the old G50.. and parts are easily available.
The Box that Bluesatin posted above is a GT3 Getrag G96 box, which has reasonable gearing (GT2 is slightly better) is 6 speed, cable shift and very easy to rebuild with parts readily avaiable.
I have to say though that getting the central shift inbetween the seats in an Ultima is a significant issue... as Im sure graham will confim.
if so then I have confusing the numbering as Im refering to yours as a std 996 and didnt realise it was also called a G96.... As you know the G96 I have is nothing like yours and unlike yours mine can be as easily rebuilt as the old G50.. and parts are easily available.
The Box that Bluesatin posted above is a GT3 Getrag G96 box, which has reasonable gearing (GT2 is slightly better) is 6 speed, cable shift and very easy to rebuild with parts readily avaiable.
I have to say though that getting the central shift inbetween the seats in an Ultima is a significant issue... as Im sure graham will confim.
andygtt said:
Graham is your box also called a G96?
I have to say though that getting the central shift inbetween the seats in an Ultima is a significant issue... as Im sure graham will confim.
Sorry I meant to refer to it as 996 Getrag not G96.I have to say though that getting the central shift inbetween the seats in an Ultima is a significant issue... as Im sure graham will confim.
The Porsche centre shift is is a tight fit in mine, but I have moved my seat to the left a little to get a bit more inline with the pedals.
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