Questions about the Noble P4
Discussion
In the latest issue of Kit Car magazine, there was some questions about the Noble P4.
The response from the editor was it's back in production as the Foreman Mk.4 and CanAm. Looking at the Foreman website, there seems to be a lot of resemblence to the Ultima.
www.nfauto.co.uk
Does anybody know the history and evolution of the Noble to the Ultima?
thanks
Jack
The response from the editor was it's back in production as the Foreman Mk.4 and CanAm. Looking at the Foreman website, there seems to be a lot of resemblence to the Ultima.
www.nfauto.co.uk
Does anybody know the history and evolution of the Noble to the Ultima?
thanks
Jack
I think I remember reading somewhere that Lee Noble worked for NFAuto in some capacity in the dim and distant past before Ultima and the current Noble. That's why there is somewhat of a family resemblance in the innards. They've all evolved quite differently at the hands of other people since then obviously.
davefiddes said:
I think I remember reading somewhere that Lee Noble worked for NFAuto in some capacity in the dim and distant past before Ultima and the current Noble. That's why there is somewhat of a family resemblance in the innards. They've all evolved quite differently at the hands of other people since then obviously.
Dave
I thought I had heard that the Ultima was originally designed by Lee Noble, then bought by the present owners and updated to the current collection. Was just wondering what the time frame and evolution history was.
Jack
Hi Jack,
I am a little surprised that others aren't offering more information. Hopefully this post won't ban me from PH. The Stigmeister likes to keep us all in order. From my limited understanding, I was under the impression that Mr. Noble, a freelance car designer, designed the ultima and competed with it in a kitcar race series. Ted very successfully raced some of the first kits and also pioneered the fitting of a V8 lump to the ol' girl and eventually bought the plans (and molds I assume) from Mr. Noble. He then refined the chassis and bodywork with the help of a VERY nice guy named Steve Smith(who went on to work for Bob Light building the Stealth B6). Noble also developed the Prosport(which had its own race series), Ascari(which he sold to "the oil man", and now has a Lotus Elise looking kit venture that he is involved with. The Foreman P4 sort of baffles me. I looked into a Foreman when I bought my car back in 1998. Back then a few of the 1st builders were having trouble with assembly, but its been a few years and I'm sure things have improved. I'm not sure how they are legally able to use such a similar chassis which resembles the earlier Ultima chassis design. I don't really have any dates or time frames on this stuff, but the Ultima website still has a few older articles that details some of the evolution. Of course you could always ask the factory...LOL
Cheers!
-Mack
I am a little surprised that others aren't offering more information. Hopefully this post won't ban me from PH. The Stigmeister likes to keep us all in order. From my limited understanding, I was under the impression that Mr. Noble, a freelance car designer, designed the ultima and competed with it in a kitcar race series. Ted very successfully raced some of the first kits and also pioneered the fitting of a V8 lump to the ol' girl and eventually bought the plans (and molds I assume) from Mr. Noble. He then refined the chassis and bodywork with the help of a VERY nice guy named Steve Smith(who went on to work for Bob Light building the Stealth B6). Noble also developed the Prosport(which had its own race series), Ascari(which he sold to "the oil man", and now has a Lotus Elise looking kit venture that he is involved with. The Foreman P4 sort of baffles me. I looked into a Foreman when I bought my car back in 1998. Back then a few of the 1st builders were having trouble with assembly, but its been a few years and I'm sure things have improved. I'm not sure how they are legally able to use such a similar chassis which resembles the earlier Ultima chassis design. I don't really have any dates or time frames on this stuff, but the Ultima website still has a few older articles that details some of the evolution. Of course you could always ask the factory...LOL
Cheers!
-Mack
Thanks Mack for the update. If you get banned you can use my login!!
The pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
IMHO, the P4 has some attractive features, and some not so attractive.
We're kindof looking for another project, but the P4 is too similar to our CanAm, and even more limited in it's use.
TTFN
Jack
The pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
IMHO, the P4 has some attractive features, and some not so attractive.
We're kindof looking for another project, but the P4 is too similar to our CanAm, and even more limited in it's use.
TTFN
Jack
Still able to login I see. Thanks Stig. Thought that might bring a smile to your face.
Noble having designed the Foreman would make sense. It is very...ughm..very similar to the pre-MKIV cars. With the exception of the drivetrain mounts I'd say its almost a duplicate. However, you can play around quite a bit with the front upright pivot heights and front/rear chassis pivot heights to alter the static RC heights and the camber curves. Something like this could have been done, but I'm pretty impressed with the pivot heights that Ultima went with on my MKIV sports. I don't know how much of the P4 has been revised since its creation, but the MKIV version of the chassis has improved quite a bit over the years. The last major order of business for Ultima was to improve the bodywork and the moulds (hence the GTR and CanAm). This saved you guys quite a bit of bodywork. Trust me.
I'd purchase an Ultima over a P4 any day, but if I was into the P4 for historic or nostolgic reasons then I'd probably buy one. Now that I'm a little more up to speed on the vehicle dynamics of these cars, I could have a bit of fun with a P4.
Jack, were you wanting a spyder or coupe? Historic replica or more modern bodywork?
Ford coming out with the GT would sort of keep me out of the Gt40 replica market. I have too many questions about what this will do to resale values of ERA's kits. I'm actually sort of fascinated with Ford's ambitions with this. Its a pig on weight (3300lbs), but they were able to bring modern assembly line techniques with robotic welders to fabricate the aluminum "semi-space frame" looking chassis. I think there were 450 welds on that frame with two robotic arms on either side. Pretty impressive. Ford's also coming out with a new crate motor that looks pretty impressive. Keep me posted with your thoughts.
Cheers!
-Mack
Thanks Stig. Thought that might bring a smile to your face. Noble having designed the Foreman would make sense. It is very...ughm..very similar to the pre-MKIV cars. With the exception of the drivetrain mounts I'd say its almost a duplicate. However, you can play around quite a bit with the front upright pivot heights and front/rear chassis pivot heights to alter the static RC heights and the camber curves. Something like this could have been done, but I'm pretty impressed with the pivot heights that Ultima went with on my MKIV sports. I don't know how much of the P4 has been revised since its creation, but the MKIV version of the chassis has improved quite a bit over the years. The last major order of business for Ultima was to improve the bodywork and the moulds (hence the GTR and CanAm). This saved you guys quite a bit of bodywork. Trust me.
I'd purchase an Ultima over a P4 any day, but if I was into the P4 for historic or nostolgic reasons then I'd probably buy one. Now that I'm a little more up to speed on the vehicle dynamics of these cars, I could have a bit of fun with a P4.
Jack, were you wanting a spyder or coupe? Historic replica or more modern bodywork?
Ford coming out with the GT would sort of keep me out of the Gt40 replica market. I have too many questions about what this will do to resale values of ERA's kits. I'm actually sort of fascinated with Ford's ambitions with this. Its a pig on weight (3300lbs), but they were able to bring modern assembly line techniques with robotic welders to fabricate the aluminum "semi-space frame" looking chassis. I think there were 450 welds on that frame with two robotic arms on either side. Pretty impressive. Ford's also coming out with a new crate motor that looks pretty impressive. Keep me posted with your thoughts.
Cheers!
-Mack
Mack
Actually, my first choice before the CanAm was the GT40, until I heard that Ford was serious about putting out one. Even though it's larger, the shape is still the same. Actually, while at Run and Gun, I got to sit in one of the Roaring 40's Gt40, and was impresssed, however, it has even less cargo space than the CanAm.
It would be nice to have a car with a roof, or top, which makes it 400% more useable.
Problems we're faced with the CanAm now is the summer heat, which we still haven't addressed. Blocking off the air intake for the engine will solve most of it, but won't do that until an alternative souce of air is designed. Not sold 100% on the side ducts yet. Maybe if they were the same colour as the car, I might be. That will still involve relocating the oil and gearbox coolers.
Until then, we'll still drive the car with the small windscreen because we're cooler, and the engine is getting a little cool air through the intake. However, with the small windscreen, a top cannot be fitted, but this doesn't matter anyways because we have no place to store it since the engine electronics are behind the seats. My wife prefers driving with the large windscreen.
The car is so impractical it's amazing we put over 6000 miles on it last year.
On the other hand, as soon as the weather hits the 40's here, and is dry, we can start driving it in comfort. 60's will mean the shorts can come out!!
Jack
Actually, my first choice before the CanAm was the GT40, until I heard that Ford was serious about putting out one. Even though it's larger, the shape is still the same. Actually, while at Run and Gun, I got to sit in one of the Roaring 40's Gt40, and was impresssed, however, it has even less cargo space than the CanAm.
It would be nice to have a car with a roof, or top, which makes it 400% more useable.
Problems we're faced with the CanAm now is the summer heat, which we still haven't addressed. Blocking off the air intake for the engine will solve most of it, but won't do that until an alternative souce of air is designed. Not sold 100% on the side ducts yet. Maybe if they were the same colour as the car, I might be. That will still involve relocating the oil and gearbox coolers.
Until then, we'll still drive the car with the small windscreen because we're cooler, and the engine is getting a little cool air through the intake. However, with the small windscreen, a top cannot be fitted, but this doesn't matter anyways because we have no place to store it since the engine electronics are behind the seats. My wife prefers driving with the large windscreen.
The car is so impractical it's amazing we put over 6000 miles on it last year.
On the other hand, as soon as the weather hits the 40's here, and is dry, we can start driving it in comfort. 60's will mean the shorts can come out!!
Jack
Interesting. I recall that you were running into some issues with the cockpit cooling. You've probably explored forcing air into the cockpit from the front to create a positive pressure in the cockpit at speed. Could be that there wouldn't be enough air from duct tubing to offset the flow of air coming into the cockpit from the back. Why the hot engine bay air is being forced through the intake vent into the cockpit is baffling. There must really be a lot of positive pressure being generated back there. I'm sure a good amount of that air is exiting out the back, but not enough from the sounds of it. You could seal off the vent and get your air intake from the top vents only. If you start playing around with any of this stuff, then install an engine intake air temperature gauge into the filter or box to monitor incoming air. You want to place it as close to the intake as possible for accuracy. Keep me posted. Hated to hear about your wife suffering so badly from all of this.
Keep me posted.
Cheers!
-Mack
Keep me posted.
Cheers!
-Mack
Hey guys, do you know if this forward cockpit heat is a 'concern' in the UK on the CanAm's? Anyone had their ears singed with carb blowback?? Reason for asking is that I've booked a test ride in the CanAm at the factory the end of Feb with a view of maybe starting a CanAm build. Being the UK I am looking at the large windscreen and canopy, with all this fitted the intake looks below the roofline.
I have found previous threads on the buying and fitting of C/F side pods but I can't really afford to go to that expense (although they do look the dogs!) so I might try to find some colour coded g/fibre pods, but that's well into the future.
Just wondering if the heat was a major concern with the CanAms?
On the test ride, anything that I should be aware of with the CanAms, or questions to ask Richard after my nerves have calmed down and I've stopped shaking!!!
Graham
I have found previous threads on the buying and fitting of C/F side pods but I can't really afford to go to that expense (although they do look the dogs!) so I might try to find some colour coded g/fibre pods, but that's well into the future.
Just wondering if the heat was a major concern with the CanAms?
On the test ride, anything that I should be aware of with the CanAms, or questions to ask Richard after my nerves have calmed down and I've stopped shaking!!!
Graham
Graham
Andycanam has the full screen and hood and has no issues with it. When he takes the hood down he does not remove it but leaves it hanging over the rear hoop. This prevents any issue with the hot air from the vent.
The prime issue with the engine bay heat is idle in traffic. Side pod scoops will not address this.
Ask all your questions before the drive. It could be some days before you stop shaking.
Steve
Andycanam has the full screen and hood and has no issues with it. When he takes the hood down he does not remove it but leaves it hanging over the rear hoop. This prevents any issue with the hot air from the vent.
The prime issue with the engine bay heat is idle in traffic. Side pod scoops will not address this.
Ask all your questions before the drive. It could be some days before you stop shaking.
Steve
bigmack said:
Interesting. I recall that you were running into some issues with the cockpit cooling. You've probably explored forcing air into the cockpit from the front to create a positive pressure in the cockpit at speed. Cheers!
-Mack
Mack
The factory recommended solution is to run ducts from the brake cooling openings into the cockpit, then seal up the engine air intake.
Firstly, I don't like the idea of ground level air coming into the cockpit.
Second, the air going into the engine is hot enough now, according to the inlet temp. monitor, sometimes around 170'F, or higher.
When the large windscreen is on the car, it generates a lot of heat just from the sun, but most of it is caused by the air coming over the top edge, and creating a low pressure area over the passengers heads, which sucks hot air out of the engine compartment through the intake.
Why don't you leave the winter warmth of Texas, and come up here to the balmy warmth of the North East winter, and we can solve this problem.
Actually, we should be able to start driving the car, even with the small windscreen next week, when the temps should start going into the 40's. (F).
regards
Jack
Hi Jack,
Been looking for an excuse to take a vacation. Not sure if my wife can handle your kind of weather though. She freezes in 50 deg temperatures! We don't start putting on the shorts until its 80.
Now I think I understand your problem. Was a little confused by the photos of the air deflectors on top of the windshield that you had to use...but understand the logic now. Airflow can be a funny thing can't it? I have an IH scout that pulls exhaust into the car when the windows are rolled down.
I think your air intake temps are too high personally. You should be able to lower them at least 50 deg.. On a cool day around 60 to 70 mine run around 90 degrees. On a warmer day, lower 90's, I've seen it as high as 140, but this I believe is mainly due to an airbox that I made up which uses a C5 corvette filter on top. The filter is heating up because heat is being reflected onto it from the bodywork insulation. These numbers are while driving, and will go higher when at idle. It sounds like sealing up the intake scoop is a must. Shame that it has very little functional value. 
In my opinion, ideally, you'd want to seal up your airfilter to it, and let the top vents exhaust some of the heat in the engine bay. The scoop size is big enough, but I'm concerned that a pocket of warm/still air might end up at the scoop. You could duct the engine air into the side pods(as has been discussed), or use NACA ducts in the rear bodywork. I wouldn't pursue sealing off the filter to the top air vents b/c it would probably heat up the engine bay even more. How about cutting out the low profile scoop and raising it up higher? 
Joking of course...
I don't think two 3" ducts are going to be enough airflow to offset your troubles as recommended by the factory. In a sports or GTR they help quite a bit cool the cockpit, but I think the top air turbulance your dealing with has greater pressure. Redirecting the top and side airflow into the cockpit(as you've done) is more appropriate. Interesting delima.
I agree with you. Seal off the vent, duct the engine air from the side pods, and maybe play around with adding a deflector underneath the engine bay to deflect some of the bottom air into the engine bay. This has been done on a couple of Sports, and I was told it helped lower engine bay temps. Another friend of mine installed two of the 10" rad fans down around the transaxle that were aimed out the back. He claimed this also helped lower his engine bay temps. You've got such a compact area to work with as compared to a GTR or Sports and I'm sure this is a big contributor to the 170 deg engine bay temps(which are ok for a production car, but will rob some power from you).
Keep me posted.
Cheers!
-Mack
Been looking for an excuse to take a vacation. Not sure if my wife can handle your kind of weather though. She freezes in 50 deg temperatures! We don't start putting on the shorts until its 80.
Now I think I understand your problem. Was a little confused by the photos of the air deflectors on top of the windshield that you had to use...but understand the logic now. Airflow can be a funny thing can't it? I have an IH scout that pulls exhaust into the car when the windows are rolled down.
I think your air intake temps are too high personally. You should be able to lower them at least 50 deg.. On a cool day around 60 to 70 mine run around 90 degrees. On a warmer day, lower 90's, I've seen it as high as 140, but this I believe is mainly due to an airbox that I made up which uses a C5 corvette filter on top. The filter is heating up because heat is being reflected onto it from the bodywork insulation. These numbers are while driving, and will go higher when at idle. It sounds like sealing up the intake scoop is a must. Shame that it has very little functional value. In my opinion, ideally, you'd want to seal up your airfilter to it, and let the top vents exhaust some of the heat in the engine bay. The scoop size is big enough, but I'm concerned that a pocket of warm/still air might end up at the scoop. You could duct the engine air into the side pods(as has been discussed), or use NACA ducts in the rear bodywork. I wouldn't pursue sealing off the filter to the top air vents b/c it would probably heat up the engine bay even more. How about cutting out the low profile scoop and raising it up higher? Joking of course... I don't think two 3" ducts are going to be enough airflow to offset your troubles as recommended by the factory. In a sports or GTR they help quite a bit cool the cockpit, but I think the top air turbulance your dealing with has greater pressure. Redirecting the top and side airflow into the cockpit(as you've done) is more appropriate. Interesting delima.
I agree with you. Seal off the vent, duct the engine air from the side pods, and maybe play around with adding a deflector underneath the engine bay to deflect some of the bottom air into the engine bay. This has been done on a couple of Sports, and I was told it helped lower engine bay temps. Another friend of mine installed two of the 10" rad fans down around the transaxle that were aimed out the back. He claimed this also helped lower his engine bay temps. You've got such a compact area to work with as compared to a GTR or Sports and I'm sure this is a big contributor to the 170 deg engine bay temps(which are ok for a production car, but will rob some power from you).
Keep me posted.
Cheers!
-Mack
p.s.I took a look at Ultima's website and saw a wind tunnel photo on the page for the spyder. Is this mainly a problem for you with the big screen fitted? I noticed that the top of the smaller screen is slightly below the level of the scoop in the side elevation photo on the CanAm page. The large screen would be above the scoop wouldn't it? Wish you could find a way to push the turbulance further back or diminish it somehow. Don't see how this could be done without lengthening the height of the screen or deflecting air before it hits the screen. Hmh...I'll keep pondering while following the "Monster Garage" design criteria of "...the vehicle must appear to look stock..."
Cheers!
-Mack
Cheers!
-Mack
Mack
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. We appreciate.
Did you notice the air scoops on the NF CanAm for picking up engine air. Functional, but ugly. I've been toying with the idea of scoops behind the fuel fillers to feed the engine, similar to the old Lola CanAms. This should work, but will require some engineering for the ducts when the clip is raised. The Ultima Porsche that my friend Lawrence Farmer built in California, has relocated the fuel fillers, and they have scoops there for engine air feed.
My 308 and 348 have scoops right behind the rear side windows, with flexible ducting going to the engine. Sealing up the current scoop, and using the side pod scoop method is looking more and more appealing.
As for engine compartment temps, the only indication that I've had that they are high, is from the computer readings of the inlet temp. I have to say, that I've never been stuck in traffic where I've had to idle for any length of time. If I do see a situation ahead that might require some stop and go driving, I turn the radiator fans on manually before the engine does. That seems to work quite well.
Just checked our forecast for the next few days. Will be in the low 40's. Going to bring the CanAm home from the shop so I can take my wife out for a Valentine lunch on Saturday in it. Taking it back on Sunday when the forecast is in the teens, might be a problem!!
TTFN
Jack
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. We appreciate.
Did you notice the air scoops on the NF CanAm for picking up engine air. Functional, but ugly. I've been toying with the idea of scoops behind the fuel fillers to feed the engine, similar to the old Lola CanAms. This should work, but will require some engineering for the ducts when the clip is raised. The Ultima Porsche that my friend Lawrence Farmer built in California, has relocated the fuel fillers, and they have scoops there for engine air feed.
My 308 and 348 have scoops right behind the rear side windows, with flexible ducting going to the engine. Sealing up the current scoop, and using the side pod scoop method is looking more and more appealing.
As for engine compartment temps, the only indication that I've had that they are high, is from the computer readings of the inlet temp. I have to say, that I've never been stuck in traffic where I've had to idle for any length of time. If I do see a situation ahead that might require some stop and go driving, I turn the radiator fans on manually before the engine does. That seems to work quite well.
Just checked our forecast for the next few days. Will be in the low 40's. Going to bring the CanAm home from the shop so I can take my wife out for a Valentine lunch on Saturday in it. Taking it back on Sunday when the forecast is in the teens, might be a problem!!
TTFN
Jack
Hi,
Using the brake ducts to channel fresh air works really well - angle the ducts to form an S-Bend and you get a grit and fly trap so that you are not sand blasted while driving!
The brakes don't suffer as the tops of the front wings have parachute vents cut into them which scavenges air from underneath - also improves stability they say...
Side scoops (polished ally) were added to direct air at the oil coolers (no aircon). Seems to work, even in a jam in the baking summer sun!
Dave.
Using the brake ducts to channel fresh air works really well - angle the ducts to form an S-Bend and you get a grit and fly trap so that you are not sand blasted while driving!
The brakes don't suffer as the tops of the front wings have parachute vents cut into them which scavenges air from underneath - also improves stability they say...
Side scoops (polished ally) were added to direct air at the oil coolers (no aircon). Seems to work, even in a jam in the baking summer sun!
Dave.
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