Ultima Handling Issues
Discussion
Guys
Ive seen a few clips lately of Ultimas having a bit of a spin at various events.
Each clip seems to show our beloved beasts travelling at what appears to be quite slowly but yet they seem to end up spinning out.
Below is Jon Olson in his somewhat modified effort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7QIoGxz1Io
Also this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmdxMuYa4gk
No intention of pointing fault but i am wondering if the cars are a little on the difficult side of handling perfection.
Ive seen a few clips lately of Ultimas having a bit of a spin at various events.
Each clip seems to show our beloved beasts travelling at what appears to be quite slowly but yet they seem to end up spinning out.
Below is Jon Olson in his somewhat modified effort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7QIoGxz1Io
Also this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmdxMuYa4gk
No intention of pointing fault but i am wondering if the cars are a little on the difficult side of handling perfection.
Edited by Mjpmark on Friday 6th August 17:01
Those longer wishbones are not surposed to make any difference, I seem to remember from reading a post a long time ago.
As for the spins, a whole number of factors can come into play, difficult to drive, no, difficult to drive very fast, yes, particularly if you have my skill.
Have a look at this one I did at Bedford recently, the bit right at the end of the vid (7:05):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWqycBVESXc
This was due to staying on the brakes well into the corner and then attempting to turn in, I sort of got pulled in by the red 968 ahead of me.
I have spun a number of times, all have been very controlled (if you will) and you almost end up where you started which makes in pretty safe(!)
Here is another one (told you I have done a few), I got distracted by the puff of smoke in front of me (6:45), again way to late on the brakes and bingo, one day I will learn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4BuRHIBg4U
As for the spins, a whole number of factors can come into play, difficult to drive, no, difficult to drive very fast, yes, particularly if you have my skill.
Have a look at this one I did at Bedford recently, the bit right at the end of the vid (7:05):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWqycBVESXc
This was due to staying on the brakes well into the corner and then attempting to turn in, I sort of got pulled in by the red 968 ahead of me.
I have spun a number of times, all have been very controlled (if you will) and you almost end up where you started which makes in pretty safe(!)
Here is another one (told you I have done a few), I got distracted by the puff of smoke in front of me (6:45), again way to late on the brakes and bingo, one day I will learn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4BuRHIBg4U
i would say in jons case a simple matter of too fast for this corner including some mistakes in driving the car.
The second video to me simply too fast, but the car is gently oversteering, so very easy to control. In general I would says the Ultima is a little
too heavy at the back, maybe some larger wider front tires could help with the cause.
1.12 on top gear track 5s faster than the rest of the world, I have not yet found the limit of the ultima but it is beyond of what I dare to do.
The second video to me simply too fast, but the car is gently oversteering, so very easy to control. In general I would says the Ultima is a little
too heavy at the back, maybe some larger wider front tires could help with the cause.
1.12 on top gear track 5s faster than the rest of the world, I have not yet found the limit of the ultima but it is beyond of what I dare to do.
Edited by spatz on Saturday 7th August 07:35
I think that once you get your head around the dynamics of an Ult they are very enjoyable to drive fast. The percieved lack of front end grip being cured by late, firm braking to get the front end to bite before initiating the turn (btw if you think Ults have front end grip issues, try a GT Porsche!!) and the massive power we have on hand means that feeding the power in mid late corner is all that more important to ensure that you don't brake traction (unless you have your show boating head on!).
Those spins there are all in 'cruise' mode aren't they? Neither full brake nor power, where the car is at the mercy of it's neutal grip. The back end is left waving about without any power to squat the rear down and the front end grip is taken by the out side front as the car is pitched over on that tyre.
The rear outer tyre is left flailing about, wanting to grip, but not being driven into the ground by throttle.
What we haven't mentioned is geo. If you do find yourself in that position, floating into oversteer, then you'd want the outside tyre as flat as possible to get some grip back, but how many of us....me included, spend the time of the money having the car set up by a professional??
I remember after having completed my first build, a Midtec Spyder, going out at Combe, with no track experience and a string box geo. It wasn't until I got home, after a number of spins, that I saw the trackday photographers images, that I saw that my outside rear was balenced mid corner on it's outter edge!!! No wonder I had issues!!
Having said that, when they do go, the Ultima is soooo neutral and like Phil has said and demonstrated, once gone, 9 times out of 10, you just slew sideways and come to halt!!
Yes I do miss her...and I'd give her a right good seeing to from what MR2 (another beautifully neutral car) racing has taught me.
Remember also chaps, the best mod you make, is a days instruction from one of these here profeshnials.
If you want a driver of now, then a youngster like Sean Edwards, or the perfect gentleman, the ever so slightly more experienced (think that's the polite way of putting it), Mike Wilds. You wouldn't be disappointed with either.
Pete
PS - Or I could sling it in the barriers for you for free!!!!
Those spins there are all in 'cruise' mode aren't they? Neither full brake nor power, where the car is at the mercy of it's neutal grip. The back end is left waving about without any power to squat the rear down and the front end grip is taken by the out side front as the car is pitched over on that tyre.
The rear outer tyre is left flailing about, wanting to grip, but not being driven into the ground by throttle.
What we haven't mentioned is geo. If you do find yourself in that position, floating into oversteer, then you'd want the outside tyre as flat as possible to get some grip back, but how many of us....me included, spend the time of the money having the car set up by a professional??
I remember after having completed my first build, a Midtec Spyder, going out at Combe, with no track experience and a string box geo. It wasn't until I got home, after a number of spins, that I saw the trackday photographers images, that I saw that my outside rear was balenced mid corner on it's outter edge!!! No wonder I had issues!!
Having said that, when they do go, the Ultima is soooo neutral and like Phil has said and demonstrated, once gone, 9 times out of 10, you just slew sideways and come to halt!!
Yes I do miss her...and I'd give her a right good seeing to from what MR2 (another beautifully neutral car) racing has taught me.
Remember also chaps, the best mod you make, is a days instruction from one of these here profeshnials.
If you want a driver of now, then a youngster like Sean Edwards, or the perfect gentleman, the ever so slightly more experienced (think that's the polite way of putting it), Mike Wilds. You wouldn't be disappointed with either.
Pete
PS - Or I could sling it in the barriers for you for free!!!!
Edited by LuckyP on Saturday 7th August 13:27
BigBlue said:
Really bizarre - the cars look to be going quite gently, yet Ted drove like a scalded cat with me as a passenger and the car felt really stable. Maybe the factory car having the longer wishbones might have something to do with it ???
Just again I shall mention if they make no difference why is this the car they use to do all there track and skid pan testing ? so really cant be a STD Production version if they don't even sell them???bluesatin said:
Clive,
If the longer front wishbones were so much better I am sure that Ted and Richard would make the most of selling them to every owner that has the current version as an upgrade! They would mad not too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure every owner would want to upgrade their wheel offsets to accomodate them??If the longer front wishbones were so much better I am sure that Ted and Richard would make the most of selling them to every owner that has the current version as an upgrade! They would mad not too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can one of you gurus tell us in laymen's terms what benefit (or not) a longer wishbone may give?
Ill guess again..... the longer wishbone is appropriate for track work with the standard offering being a more all rounder set up.
.....Have to admit though Teds 'get seriously on the anchors for a bend style' had me confused during his silver demo.........until I drove a couple myself that is.
You do need to get some weight over the front end to get around the initial turn sorted..... the front end, straight line speed-lift was a bit concerning too..?
Will certainly be putting in some effort on sorting the handling to suit personal style.
.....Have to admit though Teds 'get seriously on the anchors for a bend style' had me confused during his silver demo.........until I drove a couple myself that is.
You do need to get some weight over the front end to get around the initial turn sorted..... the front end, straight line speed-lift was a bit concerning too..?
Will certainly be putting in some effort on sorting the handling to suit personal style.
of cause length of the F1 wishbones is sort of governed by the cars shape 
longer wishbones means more control over camber changes, so you can have more suspension travel before getting adverse cambers.... its not as simple as just extending the wishbones though as geometry will change dramatically.
of cause if you keep the wheel movement limited then you dont get the adverse cambers anyhow!
longer wishbones means more control over camber changes, so you can have more suspension travel before getting adverse cambers.... its not as simple as just extending the wishbones though as geometry will change dramatically.
of cause if you keep the wheel movement limited then you dont get the adverse cambers anyhow!
Edited by andygtt on Saturday 7th August 23:47
Forgetting the Better if longer Issue (Which I could prove how more unstable the Roll Centre positions are the shorter the WB Length), the issue I have is that the Car (Better or Not) being used to set the Records, Skid Pan Track times etc is not the same as the version there selling..... I'm guess but if they altered the WB's they also would have been silly not to altered the WB Pickup points as well to take most advantage of the new setup. Which means there would have to be a Chassis alteration to change existing cars....
andygtt said:
of cause length of the F1 wishbones is sort of governed by the cars shape
longer wishbones means more control over camber changes, so you can have more suspension travel before getting adverse cambers.... its not as simple as just extending the wishbones though as geometry will change dramatically.
of cause if you keep the wheel movement limited then you dont get the adverse cambers anyhow!
Exactly bud, so a car with longer (Correctly designed) WB's can have the same RC movement with softer suspension than a car with shorter WB's and Higher spring rates. Or keep the spring rates the same and should be even more stable, and handle better at the limit.longer wishbones means more control over camber changes, so you can have more suspension travel before getting adverse cambers.... its not as simple as just extending the wishbones though as geometry will change dramatically.
of cause if you keep the wheel movement limited then you dont get the adverse cambers anyhow!
Edited by andygtt on Saturday 7th August 23:47
LuckyP said:
bluesatin said:
Clive,
If the longer front wishbones were so much better I am sure that Ted and Richard would make the most of selling them to every owner that has the current version as an upgrade! They would mad not too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure every owner would want to upgrade their wheel offsets to accomodate them??If the longer front wishbones were so much better I am sure that Ted and Richard would make the most of selling them to every owner that has the current version as an upgrade! They would mad not too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can one of you gurus tell us in laymen's terms what benefit (or not) a longer wishbone may give?
Roll Centres is another Theoretical point like the CofG... Basically the less the point moves under cornering or bump the better the car will handle as the more stable it will be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_setup
Quote:-
The car's roll centre is the other fundamental piece of the equation. Care must be taken to avoid lowering the centre of gravity past the car's roll centre. The distance between the car's centre of gravity and its roll centre is known as the roll couple, or the length that the car rolls around. Ideally, if the roll centre and the centre of gravity occupy the same space, the car should exhibit zero body roll.
Quote:-
The car's roll centre is the other fundamental piece of the equation. Care must be taken to avoid lowering the centre of gravity past the car's roll centre. The distance between the car's centre of gravity and its roll centre is known as the roll couple, or the length that the car rolls around. Ideally, if the roll centre and the centre of gravity occupy the same space, the car should exhibit zero body roll.
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