Engine chocies, again....
Discussion
I'm getting to the position where I want/need to get my engine choice firmed up.
When I originally started the build, it was LS7, I didn't want to consider anything else. Reasons were it was powerful as stock for a n/a engine, easy to tune for moderate gains, modern and relatively high revving. 530ish as standard in an Ultima, 560-590 with some mild work. No heat issues from turbos, should be reliable.
But they're still expensive, I don't think I'm far out saying about £17k is needed for a reasonably stock engine with exhaust and ecu.
The supercar market has moved on massively in the past few years and I want to make sure my choice is a little scalable for any future needs I may have, i.e, whatever I put in must have some room for a little tweaking. I think if you want more power than a cam swap provides on an LS7, it starts to get expensive. A real 700hp needs lots of internal work.
I think Kyle is demonstrating there are some very good alternatives to LS7s nowadays, especially at the higher power levels, with procharged LSx's so I'm after a bit of practical advice or experiences of the following:
Owner experiences of stock LS7s (Spatz?)
Owner experiences of tuned LS77s (Mr Tango?) MacG is possibly a different market although I'd still be interested to hear...
Owner experiences of 'charged LSx types. Kyle I guess?
The plan is to use it for trackdays and weekend fun, in that order. Not after a top speed queen, that doesn't bother me, but trackday reliability does. Hence my keenness on a stock(ish) engine.
I know I've probably asked this before, but what are the pro's and cons of the above setups? And does anyone have any planned trackdays that I could perhaps pop down to to get a feel of the setup?
I don't want to make an expensive mistake
Finally, does anyone have any good advice on the fuel system to use? Will the std Ultmia supplied set up for an LS7 suit all the above?
Cheers
When I originally started the build, it was LS7, I didn't want to consider anything else. Reasons were it was powerful as stock for a n/a engine, easy to tune for moderate gains, modern and relatively high revving. 530ish as standard in an Ultima, 560-590 with some mild work. No heat issues from turbos, should be reliable.
But they're still expensive, I don't think I'm far out saying about £17k is needed for a reasonably stock engine with exhaust and ecu.
The supercar market has moved on massively in the past few years and I want to make sure my choice is a little scalable for any future needs I may have, i.e, whatever I put in must have some room for a little tweaking. I think if you want more power than a cam swap provides on an LS7, it starts to get expensive. A real 700hp needs lots of internal work.
I think Kyle is demonstrating there are some very good alternatives to LS7s nowadays, especially at the higher power levels, with procharged LSx's so I'm after a bit of practical advice or experiences of the following:
Owner experiences of stock LS7s (Spatz?)
Owner experiences of tuned LS77s (Mr Tango?) MacG is possibly a different market although I'd still be interested to hear...
Owner experiences of 'charged LSx types. Kyle I guess?
The plan is to use it for trackdays and weekend fun, in that order. Not after a top speed queen, that doesn't bother me, but trackday reliability does. Hence my keenness on a stock(ish) engine.
I know I've probably asked this before, but what are the pro's and cons of the above setups? And does anyone have any planned trackdays that I could perhaps pop down to to get a feel of the setup?
I don't want to make an expensive mistake
Finally, does anyone have any good advice on the fuel system to use? Will the std Ultmia supplied set up for an LS7 suit all the above?
Cheers
I'd go LS3 with a stroker Kit, and a Cam. It seems to be the cheapest way to get 600+ these days and there are lots of stroker kits on EBay.... The LS3 has the largest bore of a std None sleeved LS motor (Yes LS7 is a sleeved block) and with a LS7 stroke crank 4" it becomes about a 417ci motor, you can even get a 4.125" stroke crank that makes it back to a 427ci if you want. The price is similar to a LS7 once you have all the parts, but then you have a motor with the stronger and lighter crank stronger rods and you can spec the cam to what ever you HP Goals.....
http://sdparts.com/details/mast-motorsports/mms113...
Cant see it here but last I look the Mast Crate motors came with the engine Loom and a Mapped Ecu package etc...
Cant see it here but last I look the Mast Crate motors came with the engine Loom and a Mapped Ecu package etc...
My LS2 goes away next week (if you're there Kyle) to try to get it to about 520hp (at Dead Sea level at 2.00am).
Staying NA with max power at about 6500 but revving to 7000 red line. No trick bits just optimised cam and breathing. Also considering dry sumping.
The engine is currently about 420hp but because of the torque feels way more powerful (different league) than my 380hp TVR Cerbera so 500+ should be fun but still progressive on the track.
Paul
Staying NA with max power at about 6500 but revving to 7000 red line. No trick bits just optimised cam and breathing. Also considering dry sumping.
The engine is currently about 420hp but because of the torque feels way more powerful (different league) than my 380hp TVR Cerbera so 500+ should be fun but still progressive on the track.
Paul
Hi Craig
Interesting...
Ive been very lucky to drive many Ultimas LS1, LS2, LS3, LS7 and LSx Procharged.
Ive driven stock LS7's and tuned, also stock LS3 and tuned. With your intended useage i would stick to a stock motor and run it on a GM ecu, loom etc. The stock 3 and 7 have lovely manners and will idle at 800rpm and pull like a train all the way to the redline.
545bhp is possible with just a cam and a little headwork on the 3 for way under the cost of a 7, with a little work on the bottom end mapping it will tick over nicely at 950rpm. There is a dry sumped LS3 available in a crate from Gm it does not come with an inlet but you could then fit a FAST unit and a hot cam (i have a lovely custom cam) for 560bhp. The dry sump is the way forward i think for your useage, i know the 7 comes with a damp sump but its extra brass to plump it etc. The LS3 has quite a nice wet pan as crated and there are a couple of lovely after market baffled and gated pans available if you want to stay wet and keep costs down.
Now the LSx!!!!!! not for the feint hearted its completely bonkers, ive only done a few miles in it but oh my god!! I would not like to try and tame it on trackdays and i think Stig said with his experiences less was more on the track? Yes the charged monster would be quick but it would be heavy on tyres, brakes, fuel and to be honest i think a proper 500bhp would be plenty for some serious fun on the track.
If it was me and i wanted to do trackdays in an Ultima i would spend money on big brakes, nice trannie (custom ratios) some SS suspension mods and run a stock dry sumped LS3. 490 bhp and 480 ftlbs is possible from the DS 3.
Give me a bell if you want Craig.
Interesting...
Ive been very lucky to drive many Ultimas LS1, LS2, LS3, LS7 and LSx Procharged.
Ive driven stock LS7's and tuned, also stock LS3 and tuned. With your intended useage i would stick to a stock motor and run it on a GM ecu, loom etc. The stock 3 and 7 have lovely manners and will idle at 800rpm and pull like a train all the way to the redline.
545bhp is possible with just a cam and a little headwork on the 3 for way under the cost of a 7, with a little work on the bottom end mapping it will tick over nicely at 950rpm. There is a dry sumped LS3 available in a crate from Gm it does not come with an inlet but you could then fit a FAST unit and a hot cam (i have a lovely custom cam) for 560bhp. The dry sump is the way forward i think for your useage, i know the 7 comes with a damp sump but its extra brass to plump it etc. The LS3 has quite a nice wet pan as crated and there are a couple of lovely after market baffled and gated pans available if you want to stay wet and keep costs down.
Now the LSx!!!!!! not for the feint hearted its completely bonkers, ive only done a few miles in it but oh my god!! I would not like to try and tame it on trackdays and i think Stig said with his experiences less was more on the track? Yes the charged monster would be quick but it would be heavy on tyres, brakes, fuel and to be honest i think a proper 500bhp would be plenty for some serious fun on the track.
If it was me and i wanted to do trackdays in an Ultima i would spend money on big brakes, nice trannie (custom ratios) some SS suspension mods and run a stock dry sumped LS3. 490 bhp and 480 ftlbs is possible from the DS 3.
Give me a bell if you want Craig.
as you know I own a stock internal prepped LS7 and had some 300km yesterday and some more 200km last week. The engine is just lovely and I am not missing anythting, I do not know the difference between a stock LS3 and LS7 but I can tell you that I hardly go beyond the 5000 rpm looking at my recorded values.
And btw I can tell you that my gear box modification turns out to be the best thing I have changed so far. It drives perfectly with no problems of any kind and the gears can precisely selected as in a production car.
I would say that a LS3 is probably as good and simplifies things a lot.
I am mostly going 0,9 lambda and when I put the closed loop on, my recordings tell me that the lambda target 1.o requires 10% correction in most places of the map.
So I am almost done with my mapping, have now the closed loop choice for MPG efficiency with a soon to come target lambda map for 0,9 around idling to prevent kangarooing when driving in traffic. With the target lambda map I have more choices running in closed loop than a 1.0 for all map values.
The DTAFAST ECU is allowing for all of that and I think the more I know about the ECU the more I appreciate it.
My fuel efficiency is between 17-20 liters depending on my driving which is never slow. For a 550 hp car not too bad and I should be on the safe side cooling my engine parts with some additional fuel. I am pretty sure you could get down the fuel to 14-15 liters in cruising running a leaner lambda but what for ?
And btw I can tell you that my gear box modification turns out to be the best thing I have changed so far. It drives perfectly with no problems of any kind and the gears can precisely selected as in a production car.
I would say that a LS3 is probably as good and simplifies things a lot.
I am mostly going 0,9 lambda and when I put the closed loop on, my recordings tell me that the lambda target 1.o requires 10% correction in most places of the map.
So I am almost done with my mapping, have now the closed loop choice for MPG efficiency with a soon to come target lambda map for 0,9 around idling to prevent kangarooing when driving in traffic. With the target lambda map I have more choices running in closed loop than a 1.0 for all map values.
The DTAFAST ECU is allowing for all of that and I think the more I know about the ECU the more I appreciate it.
My fuel efficiency is between 17-20 liters depending on my driving which is never slow. For a 550 hp car not too bad and I should be on the safe side cooling my engine parts with some additional fuel. I am pretty sure you could get down the fuel to 14-15 liters in cruising running a leaner lambda but what for ?
Hi Spatz
I run a DTA 80 on the LSX monster and its a good bit of kit im happy with it. The DTA cannot run knox or a fly by wire throttle which is two of its disadvantages. From what ive seen the GM ecu is well setup and ive seen 27mpg on a standard LS3 with normal driving ie A roads, motorways etc.
The DTA is a lot easier to map (even on a blown motor) but on a stock engine imo it makes no sense to run a after market setup. The DTA ecu costs as much as the complete GM setup (loom, pedal, ecm, maf, lambdas and pedal) but then you need to buy LC1's at £150 each, a custom loom at around £450 and a mechanical throttle body at £300 ish so its a no brainer. The Gm ecu can be mapped nicely (it aint easy)
I run a DTA 80 on the LSX monster and its a good bit of kit im happy with it. The DTA cannot run knox or a fly by wire throttle which is two of its disadvantages. From what ive seen the GM ecu is well setup and ive seen 27mpg on a standard LS3 with normal driving ie A roads, motorways etc.
The DTA is a lot easier to map (even on a blown motor) but on a stock engine imo it makes no sense to run a after market setup. The DTA ecu costs as much as the complete GM setup (loom, pedal, ecm, maf, lambdas and pedal) but then you need to buy LC1's at £150 each, a custom loom at around £450 and a mechanical throttle body at £300 ish so its a no brainer. The Gm ecu can be mapped nicely (it aint easy)
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