Speaker Cable

[grazer15]

Had my Yamaha and Q Acoustics surround system for a while. However my good woman has always complained that it sounds muffled,mainly from the centre speaker. I have adjusted everything I can but she is still complaining.Now when I bought the speakers the company bunged in some speaker cable which I assume would not have been the greatest quality.If I was to get say some QED silver Anniversary or something similar in cost do you think that would make all the difference?

[Globs]

No.

[Crackie]

grazer15 said:

I have adjusted everything I can but she is still complaining.

What have you adjusted ? Did you set up the levels for each channel with a test tone from the Yamaha? If you did use a test tone, did the CC sound like the other channels or was it muffled / dull. Assuming it sounded the same as the others, try turning up the gain on the CC and also down on fronts and rears. If the CC is dull relative to the others you may have a blown tweeter or possibly loose bi-wire links on the CC; if you suspect the CC has a fault, you could swap it and one of the rears to confirm the fault. Good luck.

PS. Changing the speaker cable will make neglible difference.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 13th November 13:23

[Pupp]

Where have you got the CS? If it's at low level, make sure it's firing toward like ear height for your listening position...

[chazola]

As the other poster said cable with make next to no difference for that short a run and the signals it's handling. CS only handles mono signals -i.e. speech- which I often find sounds too quiet in the mix, even after doing a test-tone set up... (my OH has moaned about this before)- my Yamaha receiver lets you send the mono speech signals to the main L/R speakers instead of a centre speaker (I don't bother with one anymore) and this sounds much better and clearer- maybe yours will let you do the same?

[anonymous-user]

Globs said:

No.

Haha. Brutally honest and SO true.

[telecat]

Does the sound get better after the system has been on a while? All amps tend to show their true characters after about 10-20 mins running. Also Unlike others on here I'd say try an upgrade. Don't go ridiulously expensive but have a browse around a few Hi-Fi forums to see if anybody has a recommendation. There is a lot of "snake oil" but remember that there is a difference but sometimes it's pretty subtle.

[Globs]

There is no difference.
It is all snake oil.

People who try it with Naim amps sometimes claim it's brighter and more details. Yes guys, that's the sound of instability as Naim amps require inductance in the wire to complete the zobel network - duh!

Spend your money on better speakers and/or a better amp, but first try ditching the centre speaker and using the L/R speakers. I do this and it's frankly much better.

[grazer15]

It is always plugged in. I may even factory reset the receiver and check the wiring again and set it up from scratch. I wished I was in a position to upgrade but unfortunately not at the moment. Ill see how it goes

[Crackie]

telecat said:

I'd say try an upgrade. There is a difference but sometimes it's pretty subtle.

Cables do sometimes make small audible differences but it sounds like Glazer15's muffled sound fix requires more than the subtle 'negligible db' differences produced by alternative cables. Sounds like the CC has no high frequency output.

[kayc]

Globs said:

There is no difference.
It is all snake oil.

People who try it with Naim amps sometimes claim it's brighter and more details. Yes guys, that's the sound of instability as Naim amps require inductance in the wire to complete the zobel network - duh!

Spend your money on better speakers and/or a better amp, but first try ditching the centre speaker and using the L/R speakers. I do this and it's frankly much better.

Personally i think you are very wrong,there is an audible difference once you get to the higher end of the Hi-fi spectrum...with all due respect unlikely to happen with Naim equipment.

[Globs]

kayc said:

Personally i think you are very wrong,there is an audible difference once you get to the higher end of the Hi-fi spectrum...with all due respect unlikely to happen with Naim equipment.

Audible difference perhaps, but due to your change in perception after having splashed out on a new cable.
In reality, it is exactly the same.

Tell me, do you like the sound of 1m of your favourite cable, or 4m best?

[kayc]

Globs said:

Audible difference perhaps, but due to your change in perception after having splashed out on a new cable.
In reality, it is exactly the same.

Tell me, do you like the sound of 1m of your favourite cable, or 4m best?

I Like the non-sound of my Audience cable a lot more than the cheap Nordost cable i had before..the differences are not huge with cables but to say there is no difference at all is incorrect.

[Zod]

This is what you need!

[Globs]

kayc said:

I Like the non-sound of my Audience cable a lot more than the cheap Nordost cable i had before..the differences are not huge with cables but to say there is no difference at all is incorrect.

So your audience cable - how long is the best sound/non-sound for you - 1m? 2m? 3m?

Each cable has inductance, resistance and capacitance on a length basis - so you need to choose a length of cable, not a brand.
Which one(s) of those 3 items changed when you spend more on the cable?

[kayc]

Globs said:

So your audience cable - how long is the best sound/non-sound for you - 1m? 2m? 3m?

Each cable has inductance, resistance and capacitance on a length basis - so you need to choose a length of cable, not a brand.
Which one(s) of those 3 items changed when you spend more on the cable?

I have a 4m length which is what i needed ..i would imagine the website would explain what you need to know.... as you say all cables have those 3 characteristics and unless every cable has identical measurements of each they they would have to sound different?After all...all cars have four wheels.

[Globs]

kayc said:

Globs said:

So your audience cable - how long is the best sound/non-sound for you - 1m? 2m? 3m?

Each cable has inductance, resistance and capacitance on a length basis - so you need to choose a length of cable, not a brand.
Which one(s) of those 3 items changed when you spend more on the cable?

I have a 4m length which is what i needed ..i would imagine the website would explain what you need to know.... as you say all cables have those 3 characteristics and unless every cable has identical measurements of each they they would have to sound different?After all...all cars have four wheels.

1. For solid state you need low capacitance.
2. Inductance is handy for stability but in general, irrelevant (and invariant on brand).
3. Resistance is just about the only thing you will measure as it can alter bass response.

1 and 2 are price irrelevant, so largely is 3. In fact 2.5mm twin and earth will suit most systems better than pricey 'hi-fi' cables, trendy cables with fancy names are as the technical call them 'bks snake oil'.

It's telling that length is rarely mentioned by cable reviews, despite the three primary attributes of a cable being entirely proportional to their length. Proof that people who believe in cables haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

[kayc]

Globs said:

1. For solid state you need low capacitance.
2. Inductance is handy for stability but in general, irrelevant (and invariant on brand).
3. Resistance is just about the only thing you will measure as it can alter bass response.

1 and 2 are price irrelevant, so largely is 3. In fact 2.5mm twin and earth will suit most systems better than pricey 'hi-fi' cables, trendy cables with fancy names are as the technical call them 'bks snake oil'.

It's telling that length is rarely mentioned by cable reviews, despite the three primary attributes of a cable being entirely proportional to their length. Proof that people who believe in cables haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

I presume you have back-to-backed a selection of cables to see if you could notice any difference or are you so convinced by the laws of physics that you dont feel you need to?I often find people who 'slag' off other peoples view or opinions have seldom got the practical experience to do so.

[Globs]

kayc said:

I presume you have back-to-backed a selection of cables to see if you could notice any difference or are you so convinced by the laws of physics that you dont feel you need to?I often find people who 'slag' off other peoples view or opinions have seldom got the practical experience to do so.

At Hi-fi shows with friends yes.
Many times.
Never heard a single difference.

BTW the laws of physics have never been broken by speaker cables, even the ones with really fancy names and prices.

I often find ignorant people without any training in electronics or physics try to explain why their favourite cable X sounds so much better and 'I just don't understand'. Belief is much more powerful then knowledge, so you believe what you want - I can't change that, but they do sound exactly the same, sorry.

I think it was Russ Andrews that got a judgement against him from the ASA about bogus cable claims.
Go read his site, full of pseudo techno-babble from end to end, even contradicting itself sometimes, like DNM etc, just another brand of snake oil in a shinier bottle.

[Crackie]

Could be time to get the popcorn out again.

kayc said:

there is an audible difference once you get to the higher end of the Hi-fi spectrum

Kayc ~ I'm interested to hear your views regarding how far up into the higher Hi-Fi echelons we mere mortals need to travel before we'll be able do detect the audible difference; systems in excess of how much, £10,000, £25,000, £50,000, £100,000 ?

I'm assuming that some of Wilson Audio's, Sonus Faber's, Meridian Audio's, ATC's & Bowers & Wilkins' flagship speakers would fit into your hi-end category. Can you think of a reason why these well respected speaker companies don't make and/or market their own cables ? This would surely help them to have stronger control over how their products, and brand, perform would it not ? You could easily make the same argument for high end amplifier makers too.

I've read the results from what I believe were 'properly conducted' double blind listening tests and the conclusion was that, the vast majority of human beings cannot consistently identify audible differences between 'high end' speaker cables and a half competently engineered piece of mains flex, no matter how exotic the remainder of the system.

Imho speaker cables overall contribution to a system's sound is small enough to be considered negligible in most cases & the vast majority of systems would be fine using B&Q's mains flex.
PS If you do use B&Q cable make sure it is the black cable though, there are those who would have you believe the orange stuff sounds too coloured.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 14th November 22:23