Thinking of upgrading-where should I put the money?

[joegooner]

I'm thinking about upgrading my hifi, with about £1k or so to spend. I'm just not sure what part of the system is worth putting the money into?
I'm pretty happy with its musicality (timing etc.) and I don't want to lose that, but I know there's a lot more detail on the discs that isn't coming through and I'm keen to hear more of it. I think my sources are fine (I've heard them in a lot more expensive system and think they're pretty good) so I think it's either got to be amps or speakers.
So does anyone have suggestions for where I should spend my money, or anything worth a listen?
I'm planning to go the Bristol show at the end of feb so should be able to try products there, but second hand is fine too (my system is all second hand, and if I can get something better for less money then so much the better).

Currently I've got: Systemdek transcription turntable with Rega RB300 arm and Dynavector DV20XL cartridge;
Arcam FMJ CD23;
Naim NAC42 pre and NAP90 power amps;
Epos M5 speakers.

Instinct tells me that the speakers are the weak link, but will the amps (especially the power) be able to deal with very much more serious speakers?
£1k is about my budget; I could probably stretch to a bit more, or if I don't need to spend it all I'll just buy more music.
Thanks in advance

[OldSkoolRS]

Might be worth getting a demo (ideally take them home for a weekend) of some PMC TB2i speakers. I have the older TB2+ models across my front three powered by an Arcam P25/3 and have an Arcam CD73T CD player. It's such a personal choice though and effected by your room: I got a weekend demo before I commited to them as I was disapointed in store but once home they sounded quite different.

They would usually be 30% above budget but some deals might be available according to this google search I did just now:

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&amp...

There is a new range of 'Twenty' (ie 21, 22, etc) speakers now out so I don't know if the TB2i will be discontinued, hence the lower price.

[joegooner]

Thanks very much. I've never heard any PMCs (heard of them, and I know they've got a good reputation), but there's a dealer near me so I'll give them a call.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but much of PMCs business is in studio monitors? I wonder if that sort of analytical, very revealing sound filters through to their hifi speakers? I guess the only thing is to have a demo.
Cheers.

Can anyone suggest other options?
Anyone tried B&W CM8s or Neat motive 2s? I've heard good things about both, but I understand they each have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Driller]

joegooner said:

Anyone tried B&W CM8s or Neat motive 2s?.

I have some CM9s and they are awesome, very nice looking with the covers off too if that's important to you. I heard a pair of CM8s and was a bit disappointed although to be fair the amp was an AV receiver.

[Teetertank]

I would definitely agree with your instincts regarding putting the money into the speakers.

In my opinion the speakers make by far the biggest impact on sound quality. Sticking a £50 pair of speakers on a £10k amplifier would result in pretty poor sound, whereas spend thousands on a pair of speakers and drive them with a £50 amplifier and you would in most cases have nice sound. So I would certainly plough all the money into upgraded speakers. The Naims will cope with most speakers.

You would get better recommendations if you say what kind of speakers would fit your requirements - i.e. must they be bookshelf/standmount, or could you accommodate floorstander? What room size have you and what do you normally listen to?

Spending £1,000 on a set of second hand speakers should get you something pretty special. I've always liked ProAc and some Monitor Audio, and picked up quite a few second hand Ruarks for bargain prices. I think I once heard the B&Ws recommended above and they gave a nice full sound, but buying second hand with that budget could get you some obscure gold. Happy hunting.

[OldSkoolRS]

I agree with the secondhand approach: Out of about AV 15 items, only 5 of them were bought new and 4 of them on a deal of some description, leaving the projector which at least I didn't pay MRP on... My Arcam AV9 processor, Arcam power amps, PMC TB2+ and M&K surrounds were all bought used and sound no worse for it. My Isco anamorphic lens was £800 compared to near £3k it would have been when new.

I've been looking in AVforums' classifieds for speakers myself recently for a bedroom and it's surprising what turns up especially after Christmas when the bills start to arrive. Nothing really compact/lifestyle type at the moment though.

I would question putting £10K speakers on a £50 amp though (unless it was a bargain used NAD or something) as it might struggle to drive them properly, but I get your point.

[Teetertank]

The £10k / £50 was just to make the point. You would want it a bit more balanced than that, but I believe the speakers should get the lions share. I have a tri-amped Krell system but am thinking about downgrading the amps and spending the money on upgrading the speakers as that's where I see the main benefits coming from (plus the reduced electricity bill!).

[joegooner]

Thank you for the advice Teetertank. You're right, I should have been more specific.

Well, ideal would be some small-ish floorstanders—something to please SWMBO, and that will suit our fairly small sitting room (just over 3m x 5m or so, with speakers about 2m apart), that will entertain, give better bass (more, but controlled) and just give me more music.

I listen to a wide range, but if I had to narrow it down I'd say radiohead-type and other experimental rock, massive attack (when I fancy a bit of bass) and female-vocalist jazz/soul (so midrange is pretty key to I suppose). Most of my music is on CD, but all my favourites are on vinyl.

I haven't thought to look on avforums for second hand gear, I shall do. I'm all for buying used, the only thing is getting a dem will be tricky, which I think is especially important when it comes to speakers. But then the potential to save money is so significant. Actually, I just missed some neat motive 2s on evilbay that went for £550—what's that, pretty much half price?

So far then, suggestions are PMC, Monitor, B&W, ProAc. I'll get hunting! Thank you all.

[OldSkoolRS]

The beauty of buying used is that if you pay a fair price, then find they don't suit, you should be able to sell them on at little loss. I did this with my Isco lens: I wasn't really sure if it would be an improvement over just zooming, but at £800 I knew I'd be able to sell it if I didn't think it was an improvement (especially as the first time I'd seen it for sale I missed out when someone beat me to it while I had my tea!). Of course if you can demo first at a dealer then it seems unfair to then go and buy elsewhere, but that's a pet hate of mine, so I'll say no more.

[Teetertank]

OldSkoolRS said:

The beauty of buying used is that if you pay a fair price, then find they don't suit, you should be able to sell them on at little loss.

Good advice

From your short list above, you'd find a good few models second hand that will fit your needs and budget.Of the ones I can think of, PMC FB1s would work well your Naims. PMC always seem to use decent drive units and they go low and you'll probably find them in a finish to suit SWMBO. Alternatively I'd look out for some ProAc Responses (something like a 2.5 or newer model) they'd give you more music for sure, articulate bass, natural vocals - I know you'd be happy.

[Frances The Mute]

Given the set-up, I'd be looking at either...

Change Pre-amp
Change/add power amp (110)
Change speakers

You could change the speakers now, but a change of pre-amp will improve all source signals and stretch your speakers that bit further.
Alternatively, split the money over both and reclaim some back when you sell your existing items on.

You have a decent front end so it will certainly pay to squeeze more from the amplification.

[Seeker UK]

Frances The Mute said:

Given the set-up, I'd be looking at either...

Change Pre-amp
Change/add power amp (110)
Change speakers

Agreed.

If you want to stay with Naim, for £1000 I'd get a NAC62 and NAP140. If you have change, look for a set of Epos ES14s to go with them.

[Crackie]

Not sure how much more bass extension you're after but here are some options

Proac SC1
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ProAc-Response-1SC-Mahog...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ProAc-Response-D1-Speake...

PMC GB1i ~ bigger bass
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PMC-GB1i-Speakers-Warran...

Ruark CL30 ~ £2850 new and apparently work well with Naim power ~ bargain !!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ruark-CL30-Floorstanding...

http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/cont...

[joegooner]

Crackie said:

PMC GB1i ~ bigger bass
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PMC-GB1i-Speakers-Warran...

Ruark CL30 ~ £2850 new and apparently work well with Naim power ~ bargain !!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ruark-CL30-Floorstanding...

Thanks! I quite like the look of those GB1is—now on my watch list. Ideally it would be small floorstanders—a bit more scale than standmounts, but my room is quite small, so I fear those Ruarks could be overkill, and just be too imposing, as good as they certainly sound.

Frances The Mute said:

You could change the speakers now, but a change of pre-amp will improve all source signals and stretch your speakers that bit further.
Alternatively, split the money over both and reclaim some back when you sell your existing items on.

As it happens, I've been offered a 102/180 for a really, really good price, well within budget. They'll be a big, big step up I'm sure. If the speakers seem very much of a handicap, I'll go from there. I can probably find a little bit extra and hopefully what I can get for my current amps and speakers, plus my remaining budget, will get me some interesting speakers.

[Frances The Mute]

joegooner said:

Frances The Mute said:

You could change the speakers now, but a change of pre-amp will improve all source signals and stretch your speakers that bit further.
Alternatively, split the money over both and reclaim some back when you sell your existing items on.

As it happens, I've been offered a 102/180 for a really, really good price, well within budget. They'll be a big, big step up I'm sure. If the speakers seem very much of a handicap, I'll go from there. I can probably find a little bit extra and hopefully what I can get for my current amps and speakers, plus my remaining budget, will get me some interesting speakers.

That's going to be a very sizeable upgrade. Get it bought and realise how good your CD player actually is!