AV receiver with decent stereo reproduction
Discussion
I'll soon be in a position to put a half decent AV system for the lounge as I'll be moving house which will mean a lot more space. Hi-fi wise I have a Marantz set-up which is probably about 11 years old composing of the following modest components:
Tuner: ST4000
CD: CD5000
Amp: PM4000
Speakers: Monitor Audio Bronze B2 on Atacama stands (filled with sand!)
I'd like if possible integrate the stero speakers and stands into the AV set up as the front pair, buy an AV amp and potentially use some Monitor Audio Vectors for the centre, rear and sub.
So my questions are:
> Will the sound 'work' as I'm aware the drive units in the B2s are far larger than than those found in the Vectors?
> Is there an AV amp that can do 5.1 and stereo which will match or surpass the quality of my old Marantz amp? Maybe something which can bypass all the processing guff to give a cleaner sound when in stereo mode and just driving the B2s?
I was looking at this potentially? http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/azur-351r-a... ...
...although something a little cheaper would be great.
Any ideas or experiences welcome...
Tuner: ST4000
CD: CD5000
Amp: PM4000
Speakers: Monitor Audio Bronze B2 on Atacama stands (filled with sand!)
I'd like if possible integrate the stero speakers and stands into the AV set up as the front pair, buy an AV amp and potentially use some Monitor Audio Vectors for the centre, rear and sub.
So my questions are:
> Will the sound 'work' as I'm aware the drive units in the B2s are far larger than than those found in the Vectors?
> Is there an AV amp that can do 5.1 and stereo which will match or surpass the quality of my old Marantz amp? Maybe something which can bypass all the processing guff to give a cleaner sound when in stereo mode and just driving the B2s?
I was looking at this potentially? http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/azur-351r-a... ...
...although something a little cheaper would be great.
Any ideas or experiences welcome...
No reason why you can't keep the existing amp and speakers. Make sure you get an AV amp with left and right pre-outs, and feed them to a spare input on the stereo amp.
Connect your AV/5.1 sources to the AV amp, and your CD player directly to the stereo amp.
Don't worry about the rear speakers being smaller, but it's a good idea to try and match the centre to the left and right, size-wise.
Connect your AV/5.1 sources to the AV amp, and your CD player directly to the stereo amp.
Don't worry about the rear speakers being smaller, but it's a good idea to try and match the centre to the left and right, size-wise.
In short I don't think it will match your Marantz for stereo performance, but I'll explain why I think this:
I used to have a NADC350 stereo amp for CD playback (and the matching NAD CD player). I had a Denon 2808 AV amp and I still found that the NAD was better for stereo use. It was a complicated system since I had my front left and rights wired to the NAD and when using the Denon for AV I had to set the NAD volume to 12 o clock position and use the Denon pre outs into the NAD's aux input.
I wanted a one box solution and I tried various AV options and in the end, I bought a 2 year old higher end AV processor made by Arcam. This was more than a match for the NAD for stereo and of course does a great job for AV (using an Oppo BluRay for HD sound decoding). Of course this means that for AV use I haven't got room eq or built in HD decoding (hence the Oppo) but it meant that I got an upgrade rather than a sidestep for stereo and a huge jump in AV sound too.
If you can live with not having the HD sound decoding for BluRays (and just live with 'core' DTS @ 1.5Mbps which pretty much all 5.1 AV amps can make use of) then I'd suggest looking for a used Arcam AV350 amp. There might be some newer models that will give you a decent stereo performance, but IMHO the price of the Cambridge implies that 5 channels of amplification can't be as good for that money as a straight stereo amp, which is pretty much what you are comparing it to with your existing Marantz.
As usual, it's all a compromise and results in more money required than you initially thought.
EDIT: Make sure whatever centre you buy is a very good match for the left/rights otherwise you get three separate speakers rather than a cohesive front soundstage.
I used to have a NADC350 stereo amp for CD playback (and the matching NAD CD player). I had a Denon 2808 AV amp and I still found that the NAD was better for stereo use. It was a complicated system since I had my front left and rights wired to the NAD and when using the Denon for AV I had to set the NAD volume to 12 o clock position and use the Denon pre outs into the NAD's aux input.
I wanted a one box solution and I tried various AV options and in the end, I bought a 2 year old higher end AV processor made by Arcam. This was more than a match for the NAD for stereo and of course does a great job for AV (using an Oppo BluRay for HD sound decoding). Of course this means that for AV use I haven't got room eq or built in HD decoding (hence the Oppo) but it meant that I got an upgrade rather than a sidestep for stereo and a huge jump in AV sound too.
If you can live with not having the HD sound decoding for BluRays (and just live with 'core' DTS @ 1.5Mbps which pretty much all 5.1 AV amps can make use of) then I'd suggest looking for a used Arcam AV350 amp. There might be some newer models that will give you a decent stereo performance, but IMHO the price of the Cambridge implies that 5 channels of amplification can't be as good for that money as a straight stereo amp, which is pretty much what you are comparing it to with your existing Marantz.
As usual, it's all a compromise and results in more money required than you initially thought.
EDIT: Make sure whatever centre you buy is a very good match for the left/rights otherwise you get three separate speakers rather than a cohesive front soundstage.
Interesting stuff.
The other thing I was thinking of as an alternative would be to simply route the sound from the TV into the stereo amp and just enjoy good quality stereo sounds for Sky, DVD and Blu-Ray.
Or keep the stereo kit completely separate and go for a sound bar and sub combo for the AV duties.
Whatever happens it needs to be relatively 'missus friendly'.
The other thing I was thinking of as an alternative would be to simply route the sound from the TV into the stereo amp and just enjoy good quality stereo sounds for Sky, DVD and Blu-Ray.
Or keep the stereo kit completely separate and go for a sound bar and sub combo for the AV duties.
Whatever happens it needs to be relatively 'missus friendly'.
Neil G60 said:
Interesting stuff.
The other thing I was thinking of as an alternative would be to simply route the sound from the TV into the stereo amp and just enjoy good quality stereo sounds for Sky, DVD and Blu-Ray.
Or keep the stereo kit completely separate and go for a sound bar and sub combo for the AV duties.
Whatever happens it needs to be relatively 'missus friendly'.
It depends on how much you will use the system for movies compared to music and how high a priorty good movie sound is to you.The other thing I was thinking of as an alternative would be to simply route the sound from the TV into the stereo amp and just enjoy good quality stereo sounds for Sky, DVD and Blu-Ray.
Or keep the stereo kit completely separate and go for a sound bar and sub combo for the AV duties.
Whatever happens it needs to be relatively 'missus friendly'.
My usage is about 70:30 in favour of movies. Music reproduction is important to me, but I couldn't go without surround sound for movies, so I have got a relatively high end AV Receiver which isn't bad at all for music and excellent for movies.
Personally, I'd discount the soundbar idea as I think you would have to pay quite a lot to get one that would sound much better than just routing your TV sound through your existing stereo set up.
kingston12 said:
It depends on how much you will use the system for movies compared to music and how high a priorty good movie sound is to you.
My usage is about 70:30 in favour of movies. Music reproduction is important to me, but I couldn't go without surround sound for movies, so I have got a relatively high end AV Receiver which isn't bad at all for music and excellent for movies.
Personally, I'd discount the soundbar idea as I think you would have to pay quite a lot to get one that would sound much better than just routing your TV sound through your existing stereo set up.
Which AV receiver do you use?My usage is about 70:30 in favour of movies. Music reproduction is important to me, but I couldn't go without surround sound for movies, so I have got a relatively high end AV Receiver which isn't bad at all for music and excellent for movies.
Personally, I'd discount the soundbar idea as I think you would have to pay quite a lot to get one that would sound much better than just routing your TV sound through your existing stereo set up.
Neil G60 said:
Which AV receiver do you use?
Marantz SR7007. It cost quite a lot, but I found that this is about the level that AV Receivers start getting quite good with music. The Denon 3313 is normally available on a better discount and does a similar job.I say 'quite good' because I have no doubt that a decent £300 stereo amp would outperform it for music, but I wanted a one-box solution so decided that this was the best compromise.
If you are keeping the stereo side of things separate, I think you can go a lot cheaper on the AV Receiver. Something like the Denon 2113 is available at around £250 and does an admirable job with movies for that money and still have most of the bells & whistles of the higher models.
Apart from stereo quality, the higher-end AV Receivers add more HDMI ins/outs, better menu system and the ability to drive better speakers, but the movie reproduction is surprisingly similar with movies with standard speakers.
I've just got a Yamaha RX-A820 with Monitor Audio BX2 speakers. I was looking for a decent AVR with pre-outs so that I could add a separate stereo amp in a few months or so. However I've been really impressed with the stereo quality; a mate has an old Marantz stereo amp with the same speakers and it sounds no better to my (admittedly untuned) ears. (I view all claims regarding hi-fi in general with a very cynical eye, as they are always biased.)
Yeah, a lot of those amps are a bit out of my league price-wise. I was looking at the Denon AVR-2113 as reviews tend to say it’s good sonically, is easy to set up and can access other media stuff making an attractive one-box hub for home entertainment.
So would this unit have a ‘front pre-out’ which I could send to my Marantz stereo amp and use my decent Monitor Audio speakers?
If so this then raises 2 questions:
> Won’t I have to make sure that the Marantz amp is at a specific volume level or it’ll either send too much or too little volume to the front channels when in ‘movie’ mode.
> Will I end up buying a 5.1 speaker package and not using 2 of the speakers? (I could buy rear, centre and sub separately but it would probably be more expensive)
God this is complicated!
Thanks for all your responses so far
So would this unit have a ‘front pre-out’ which I could send to my Marantz stereo amp and use my decent Monitor Audio speakers?
If so this then raises 2 questions:
> Won’t I have to make sure that the Marantz amp is at a specific volume level or it’ll either send too much or too little volume to the front channels when in ‘movie’ mode.
> Will I end up buying a 5.1 speaker package and not using 2 of the speakers? (I could buy rear, centre and sub separately but it would probably be more expensive)
God this is complicated!
Thanks for all your responses so far
Edited by Neil G60 on Thursday 7th February 13:04
Doesn't look like the Denon "2" series have pre-outs.
Yes, you need to set the volume knob on the stereo amp to a known level each time you use a 5.1 source - unless you connect your CDP to the AV receiver, and switch the AV amp into stereo mode.
This is basically what I do now, using my Linn amps to bi-amp the front pre-outs from my Denon 3312, and my Naim amp to bi-amp the centre pre-out.
It's possible to buy surround and centre speakers individually.
Yes, you need to set the volume knob on the stereo amp to a known level each time you use a 5.1 source - unless you connect your CDP to the AV receiver, and switch the AV amp into stereo mode.
This is basically what I do now, using my Linn amps to bi-amp the front pre-outs from my Denon 3312, and my Naim amp to bi-amp the centre pre-out.
It's possible to buy surround and centre speakers individually.
AV amps are now much better than they were let me explain my original set up and my just changed system.
I used a Marantz PM66 SE amp (bloody good amp) to drive my front main pair (Tannoy Mercury floorstanders) for music from CD (Marantz CD 63 SE) I then added a Yamaha DSP-E800 AV processor that decodes the 5.1, sends the main front pair through the Marantz amp and drives the centre and rears itself, with truly excellent results, the DSP-E800 was a legend in its own lifetime.
This obviously gave the same high end stereo quality 2 channel music and great front main pair for 5.1.
Unfortunately the Marantz amp has just given up the ghost (down on one channel)and this drove me to investigate AV amps.
Result - purchase of Yamaha RX-V373 AV amp (£200) same speaker set-up and CD player - I could not believe how good it is, both in stereo for CD and 5.1 for movies - I have to say that it is better in stereo than the old Marantz amp (I never believed it would be, but it is) and in 5.1 streets ahead of the DSP-E800 (and that was good!)
Moral - don't believe all that you hear regarding AV amps for music from CD - go and listen and I think you will be surprised at how they have improved in the last few years.
BOB
I used a Marantz PM66 SE amp (bloody good amp) to drive my front main pair (Tannoy Mercury floorstanders) for music from CD (Marantz CD 63 SE) I then added a Yamaha DSP-E800 AV processor that decodes the 5.1, sends the main front pair through the Marantz amp and drives the centre and rears itself, with truly excellent results, the DSP-E800 was a legend in its own lifetime.
This obviously gave the same high end stereo quality 2 channel music and great front main pair for 5.1.
Unfortunately the Marantz amp has just given up the ghost (down on one channel)and this drove me to investigate AV amps.
Result - purchase of Yamaha RX-V373 AV amp (£200) same speaker set-up and CD player - I could not believe how good it is, both in stereo for CD and 5.1 for movies - I have to say that it is better in stereo than the old Marantz amp (I never believed it would be, but it is) and in 5.1 streets ahead of the DSP-E800 (and that was good!)
Moral - don't believe all that you hear regarding AV amps for music from CD - go and listen and I think you will be surprised at how they have improved in the last few years.
BOB
Have to agree with Rob: Go and listen, then if you can't tell the difference no need to worry about having a complicated system just so that stereo can sound 'better'. My experience was that a £700 Denon AV amp didn't sound as good as the £200 NAD stereo amp I had, but it's a totally different room and ancillary gear to Rob's system.
I thought of this thread when I saw this advert for an Arcam AVR300 for £250(no connection to the seller BTW):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/amplifier-receiver-...
For the money, probably a lot better with stereo music than a similarly priced new amp.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/amplifier-receiver-...
For the money, probably a lot better with stereo music than a similarly priced new amp.
OldSkoolRS said:
I thought of this thread when I saw this advert for an Arcam AVR300 for £250(no connection to the seller BTW):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/amplifier-receiver-...
For the money, probably a lot better with stereo music than a similarly priced new amp.
Without a doubt and where my money would be going, I currently have an older AVR200.http://www.avforums.com/forums/amplifier-receiver-...
For the money, probably a lot better with stereo music than a similarly priced new amp.
At about the time I got the Arcam I borrowed a mates brand new Onkyo amp, this was a while ago not long after HD audio first became available, thing it might have been an 805 from memory. My Arcam was massively better for Stereo IMO and to my surprise I actually thought normal old DTS (albeit at the full bit rate you get on Bluray) sounded better on the Arcam than HD audio on the Onkyo. HD audio was better than DTS when trying both on the Onkyo though. So I still maintain having decent amplification to be more important than new formats.
To be fair this was a while ago as I say and I'd imagine that Amps have moved on from the 1st generation of HD capable amps but still made me happy with my £150 bargain Arcam.
Great input, thanks very much indeed everyone. I was looking at a Denon recently which appeals quite a lot: http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/d...
Those older Arcam amps are few and far between second hand
Those older Arcam amps are few and far between second hand
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