Bi-wiring

[Driller]

Reading about this on the speaker cable advice thread, has anyone ever tried quadruple wiring? ie four lengths of speaker cable to each speaker.

If you have tried this did it sound even better?

If you haven't tried it, should it make a theoretical difference?

[bsdnazz]

All bi-wiring does is change the physical layout of the amp/speaker circuit a bit and add some more copper cabling.

Instead of the two speakers being electrically connected by the links on the speaker they are connected via the bi-wire cables.

You go from (a=amp, S=speaker, l=link)
 +-----------+-+ 
 a           SlS
 +-----------+-+

to
 +-----------+-----------+
 S           a           S
 +-----------+-----------+

and are replacing a short link with a long second run of speaker cable.

IMHO you might as well just use thicker speaker cable for a very slight improvement.

[hughcam]

I tried it on my Rotel ra04 and the difference was surprisingly better. I have no idea why!

[Driller]

Well my (obviously sceptical) point is this: If you can hear an improvement by connecting 2 pairs of speaker wire to your speakers, why not connect 4 pairs as surely it will sound even better? At this point you can progressively go 8, 16, 32 etc etc

Can the bi-wiring fraternity explain this?

[G600]

It connects the woofer and tweeter to the amp separately, not sure how much difference it makes but it's how mine are wired up.

[Crackie]

Driller said:

Well my (obviously sceptical) point is this: If you can hear an improvement by connecting 2 pairs of speaker wire to your speakers, why not connect 4 pairs as surely it will sound even better? At this point you can progressively go 8, 16, 32 etc etc

I don't think the bi-wire advocates claim the benefits are a result of having additional wires between amp and speakers; increasing to 8, 16, 32 cables isn't likely to help. Some very well respected speaker companies such as B&W, who appear to have nothing to gain from people buying another company's speaker cable, advocate bi-wiring. Some other very high end companies such as Wilson Audio don't bother with bi-wiring at all. Some of the bi-wire advocates claim the improvements come from having the high power, high current, low frequency signals independent of the high frequency signal path, in the speaker cables at least. This has some reasonably plausible benefits such as limiting the effects of edy current distortion and induced back EMF distortion. The subject is a can of worms to be honest.

I should mention that I've never actually tried bi-wiring myself but did use bi-amped systems for over 20 years before going active.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by Crackie on Monday 27th January 07:22

[JustinP1]

Crackie said:

Some of the bi-wire advocates claim the improvements come from having the high power, high current, low frequency signals independent of the high frequency signal path, in the speaker cables at least. This has some reasonably plausible benefits such as limiting the effects of edy current distortion and induced back EMF distortion. The subject is a can of worms to be honest.

I should mention that I've never actually tried bi-wiring myself but did use bi-amped systems for over 20 years before going active.

I agree with all this.

I believe that explanation to be correct, and is a succinct overview of what I've read speaker and amp designers explain it.

I've not done an AB biwire and single wire, but I did biwire. I currently bi-amp, so effectively two separate amp/speaker circuits to each speaker, separating the bottom and mid/top range.

That makes a difference both in theory and in practice which is IMHO much more of a step than biwiring.

To add counterpoint, none of my 4 rear speakers in a 7.1 setup are bi-wired. I simply couldn't justify the possible/potential difference being audible in that context.

[bsdnazz]

hughcam said:

I tried it on my Rotel ra04 and the difference was surprisingly better. I have no idea why!

Placebo effect?

[rich83]

If using a normal stereo amp and just running 2 sets of cables from the same terminals then any improvement is placebo. You need some sort of crossover.

[bsdnazz]

rich83 said:

If using a normal stereo amp and just running 2 sets of cables from the same terminals then any improvement is placebo. You need some sort of crossover.

Bi-(wire/amp)able speakers have just that.

There are 2 pairs of terminals and each pair is connected by a copper link. Remove the links and you have two separate circuits. One pair of terminals is connected to a high pass filter and tweeter while the other pair of terminals has a low pass filter and is connected to a mid or bass driver.

When bi-wiring both pairs of terminals are fed from the same amp terminals, when bi-amping each pair of terminals has it's own amp.

The law of diminishing returns kicks in real soon making bi-wiring not worth in IMHO. I don't have the budget to bi-amp and frankly cannot be bothered to try. I prefer to sit down and listen to the music or watch the film!

[Driller]

Crackie said:

I don't think the bi-wire advocates claim the benefits are a result of having additional wires between amp and speakers; increasing to 8, 16, 32 cables isn't likely to help. Some very well respected speaker companies such as B&W, who appear to have nothing to gain from people buying another company's speaker cable, advocate bi-wiring. Some other very high end companies such as Wilson Audio don't bother with bi-wiring at all. Some of the bi-wire advocates claim the improvements come from having the high power, high current, low frequency signals independent of the high frequency signal path, in the speaker cables at least. This has some reasonably plausible benefits such as limiting the effects of edy current distortion and induced back EMF distortion. The subject is a can of worms to be honest.

I should mention that I've never actually tried bi-wiring myself but did use bi-amped systems for over 20 years before going active.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by Crackie on Monday 27th January 07:22

Thanks for the clarification Crackie (and the link). I remain sceptical but at least it's not as loopy as I thought before!

My CM9s do indeed have two sets of terminals, I may give it a go just for fun

[Crackie]

Driller said:

Crackie said:

I don't think the bi-wire advocates claim the benefits are a result of having additional wires between amp and speakers; increasing to 8, 16, 32 cables isn't likely to help. Some very well respected speaker companies such as B&W, who appear to have nothing to gain from people buying another company's speaker cable, advocate bi-wiring. Some other very high end companies such as Wilson Audio don't bother with bi-wiring at all. Some of the bi-wire advocates claim the improvements come from having the high power, high current, low frequency signals independent of the high frequency signal path, in the speaker cables at least. This has some reasonably plausible benefits such as limiting the effects of edy current distortion and induced back EMF distortion. The subject is a can of worms to be honest.

I should mention that I've never actually tried bi-wiring myself but did use bi-amped systems for over 20 years before going active.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by Crackie on Monday 27th January 07:22

Thanks for the clarification Crackie (and the link). I remain sceptical but at least it's not as loopy as I thought before!

My CM9s do indeed have two sets of terminals, I may give it a go just for fun

. Nothing to lose by giving it a try; let us know what you think.

[Driller]

I'll certainly post up the results if I get the time to do it. If I do I'd like to make a proper experiment of it though and use a switching system.

Would you agree that I need an 8 pole DT switch and not a 4 pole?

[skelters]

I have a Marantz Amp and it's Bi Wire capable.

I've Bi Wired the Amp with my speakers and it works. There seems to be a difference in the sound from normal wiring but who really knows!

Marantz have been good enough to provide info on the various Wiring possibilities with the AMP.

Here's the Bi Wired info if it helps....



Link to PDF if the image didn't appear... http://www.marantz.co.uk/DocumentMaster/master/PM6...

Edited by skelters on Monday 3rd February 13:27

[Esseesse]

Driller said:

Reading about this on the speaker cable advice thread, has anyone ever tried quadruple wiring? ie four lengths of speaker cable to each speaker.

If you have tried this did it sound even better?

If you haven't tried it, should it make a theoretical difference?

In theory you could try this if you had 4 way speakers.

I've long had the suspicion that non-biwireable crossover designs are superior to biwireable crossovers (biwired or not). I think Dynaudio agree with me too.

My old memory of crossover design says that in single wire crossovers the actual 'crossover' between the drivers will be more coherent as their respective roll-offs will to some extent balance the other drivers peaks and dips in impedance.

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 3rd February 15:59

[Esseesse]

Had a quick search and I think I'm thinking of series crossover designs, which if done right I think can be better than parallel (common) ones

[bsdnazz]

Looking at the Marantz manual page 16 states:

• The same signal is output from the SPEAKERS A and SPEAKERS B terminals.
• When only one set of speakers is to be connected, use either the SPEAKERS A or SPEAKERS B terminals.

So while there are 4 terminals per speaker for your bi-wiring pleasure they're connected in pairs with what are effectively links internal to the amp.

Electrically no different to leaving in the speaker links and running one set of wires between the two.

[skelters]

bsdnazz said:

Looking at the Marantz manual page 16 states:

• The same signal is output from the SPEAKERS A and SPEAKERS B terminals.
• When only one set of speakers is to be connected, use either the SPEAKERS A or SPEAKERS B terminals.

So while there are 4 terminals per speaker for your bi-wiring pleasure they're connected in pairs with what are effectively links internal to the amp.

Electrically no different to leaving in the speaker links and running one set of wires between the two.

Looks like Page 16 is for two sets of speakers one pair on A and one set on B. This is not the same as Bi Wired.

Page 17 is for Bi Wiring which states.....

• When bi-wiring with bi-wireable speakers, connect the mid and high range terminals to SPEAKERS A (or SPEAKERS B), the low range terminals to
SPEAKERS B (or SPEAKERS A).
• This connection limits the effect of signal interference between the high range speakers and low range speakers, allowing you to enjoy high quality playback.

Who knows if it makes a difference or not although the Marantz Amp along with the Bowers and Wilkins Speakers sounds great.

Edited by skelters on Monday 3rd February 22:41

[bsdnazz]

While page 16 is not for bi-wiring it does contain important information.

Notably, that the same signal is output from both terminal sets A & B and when not bi-wiring either terminal set can be used.

I interpret this to mean that the A & B terminals are internally directly connected to each other. The two sets of terminals are there for convenience and contribute little (a bit more metal) to the signal path.

[skelters]

bsdnazz said:

While page 16 is not for bi-wiring it does contain important information.

Notably, that the same signal is output from both terminal sets A & B and when not bi-wiring either terminal set can be used.

I interpret this to mean that the A & B terminals are internally directly connected to each other. The two sets of terminals are there for convenience and contribute little (a bit more metal) to the signal path.

Fair point but isn't that important information on that setup which is not Bi Wired.

The Marantz Amp has Speakers A and B buttons on the front that relate to the setup on Page 16 or Bi Wiring on Page 17.

If you only have two speakers you would use channel A, 4 speakers use A and B.

Bi Wired would then be two speakers using both channels A and B.

I would assume that the electronics inside the Amp and possibly the speakers deal with the input differently when the Bi Wired configuration is introduced. High Frequency output from the Amp is sent to B and Low Frequency to A.

This can be heard if Bi Wired and Channel A or B is selected individually where either high Frequency or Bass is heard from the speakers depending on the wiring configuration of the Bi Wired Speakers.

Only by selecting A and B is the full sound heard from the source.

Good idea to have multiple options depending on the users preferred configuration.