Wired ceiling speakers vs Sonos vs Bluesound
Discussion
Hi all - apologies for yet another thread on whole house audio, but I thought that I would start my own rather than hijacking everyone else's.
The brief:
- 3-5 zones
- same track playable in all zones, or some zones
- different tracks playable in different zones
- choice of streaming services, playing from a NAS less of a priority
- stereo sound
Background
Whole house renovation, so ceiling speaker cabling is possible. So I had thought that this would really be the way to go. It seems that if you want to keep costs comparable to a Sonos (i.e. Monitor C165 speakers or similar rather than super-high end speakers), the costs of buying the hardware is actually similar to buying the Sonos active speakers/sub. Quality will be comparable: while the Sonos is not hi-fi quality, neither is putting speakers in a ceiling.
For example: Kitchen:
Option 1) Ceiling speakers + Sonos. 1 x Connect Amp + 2 x Monitor Audio CT165 speakers + 1 x Sonos Sub = GBP1150, and add the cost of speaker cable/installation
Option 2) 2 x Sonos Play 3 + 1 x Sonos sub = GBP 1010
The story is the same for any zone. If you are willing to use Play 1s and a sub, the wireless Sonos option is cheaper still. It seems that wiring ceiling speakers is actually not a more economical option. Add to the fact that if you take the Sonos wireless option you can change your configuration easily.
Enter Bluesound, for HD audio. Similar functionality, but more expensive than Sonos. I was keen, but I have just returned the Bluesound Pulse I had on trial (better than my Gen 2 Sonos Play 5 in terms of sound quality). Why? Sonos services are better - Google Play, Spotify and Apple Music are all supported. We have a huge iTunes library between us, and I can't get this onto Bluesound unless I put it all on a NAS or the Bluesound Vault. The latter is GBP1000. Apple music integrates it into the streaming environment by putting it onto iCloud
Also, Sonos are talking about integrating voice control.
Question to you is: am I missing something here? HD audio is cool, but I don't really see the current real world benefits without a proper audiophile setup: Playing HD audio through the Bluesound vs normal was better, but not monumentally so. And when I borrowed a Sonos sub and tacked it the the Play 5, I appreciated the Sonos more than the Bluesound regardless of source.
Wildcard option was a load of Chromecasts driving an amp and speakers in each room. But you can't do different tracks in different rooms, right? And you are back to the need to have wired speakers - or find good wireless active speakers to connect to the Chromecasts, that will meld together to build whole house audio as capable as Sonos/Bluesound's systems. And no support for Apple Music.
I guess that while a Sonos wireless multi room system looks expensive, and doesn't do HD music, actually the functionality, cost vs wired system and ability to add to it incrementally makes it the winner here. As for an audiophile listening room, I guess I can still use my Musical Fidelity/PMC system there and add a high quality Apple Music capable streamer. It won't be connected to the whole house audio - but for a listening/AV room, that really is less of a concern.
Only downside I could really see to Sonos wireless over wired ceiling speakers was that I have to use a separate Sonos amp per bathroom, wired to a ceiling speaker, as you can't have plug sockets to run an active speaker in such rooms. But if you don't sit in the bath listening to music (we don't), this seems a minor thing. I'll just wire the bathrooms for a single ceiling speaker each, heading to a central point, so you could add a Sonos amp and speaker in future if you ever need to.
Long post, but any thoughts would be very much welcomed. I am new to this, so may well be making some elementary mistakes...
The brief:
- 3-5 zones
- same track playable in all zones, or some zones
- different tracks playable in different zones
- choice of streaming services, playing from a NAS less of a priority
- stereo sound
Background
Whole house renovation, so ceiling speaker cabling is possible. So I had thought that this would really be the way to go. It seems that if you want to keep costs comparable to a Sonos (i.e. Monitor C165 speakers or similar rather than super-high end speakers), the costs of buying the hardware is actually similar to buying the Sonos active speakers/sub. Quality will be comparable: while the Sonos is not hi-fi quality, neither is putting speakers in a ceiling.
For example: Kitchen:
Option 1) Ceiling speakers + Sonos. 1 x Connect Amp + 2 x Monitor Audio CT165 speakers + 1 x Sonos Sub = GBP1150, and add the cost of speaker cable/installation
Option 2) 2 x Sonos Play 3 + 1 x Sonos sub = GBP 1010
The story is the same for any zone. If you are willing to use Play 1s and a sub, the wireless Sonos option is cheaper still. It seems that wiring ceiling speakers is actually not a more economical option. Add to the fact that if you take the Sonos wireless option you can change your configuration easily.
Enter Bluesound, for HD audio. Similar functionality, but more expensive than Sonos. I was keen, but I have just returned the Bluesound Pulse I had on trial (better than my Gen 2 Sonos Play 5 in terms of sound quality). Why? Sonos services are better - Google Play, Spotify and Apple Music are all supported. We have a huge iTunes library between us, and I can't get this onto Bluesound unless I put it all on a NAS or the Bluesound Vault. The latter is GBP1000. Apple music integrates it into the streaming environment by putting it onto iCloud
Also, Sonos are talking about integrating voice control.
Question to you is: am I missing something here? HD audio is cool, but I don't really see the current real world benefits without a proper audiophile setup: Playing HD audio through the Bluesound vs normal was better, but not monumentally so. And when I borrowed a Sonos sub and tacked it the the Play 5, I appreciated the Sonos more than the Bluesound regardless of source.
Wildcard option was a load of Chromecasts driving an amp and speakers in each room. But you can't do different tracks in different rooms, right? And you are back to the need to have wired speakers - or find good wireless active speakers to connect to the Chromecasts, that will meld together to build whole house audio as capable as Sonos/Bluesound's systems. And no support for Apple Music.
I guess that while a Sonos wireless multi room system looks expensive, and doesn't do HD music, actually the functionality, cost vs wired system and ability to add to it incrementally makes it the winner here. As for an audiophile listening room, I guess I can still use my Musical Fidelity/PMC system there and add a high quality Apple Music capable streamer. It won't be connected to the whole house audio - but for a listening/AV room, that really is less of a concern.
Only downside I could really see to Sonos wireless over wired ceiling speakers was that I have to use a separate Sonos amp per bathroom, wired to a ceiling speaker, as you can't have plug sockets to run an active speaker in such rooms. But if you don't sit in the bath listening to music (we don't), this seems a minor thing. I'll just wire the bathrooms for a single ceiling speaker each, heading to a central point, so you could add a Sonos amp and speaker in future if you ever need to.
Long post, but any thoughts would be very much welcomed. I am new to this, so may well be making some elementary mistakes...
The main advantage of the ceiling speakers is the clean look, so if you are not worried about that element why pay more for them over another option?
Sonos seems like a good solution here as you can change the configuration as you like and it is very nice kit. One word of warning is to buy a couple first and check that they work on your network before investing wholesale in them.
I had Sonos for years and spent more time trying to get them to be stable than I did actually enjoying music on them, BUT that was totally down to my own network conditions. If congestion on the 2.4ghz band in your area is as bad as it is in mine (outer London), then Sonos will just not work properly unless every zone is wired. I was actually told that by one of the long-suffering Sonos Tech Support people who has been trying to help me to get it to work.
If you don't have those issues or can use it wired, Sonos seems a rock solid solution.
I'd agree with you about HD Audio and you are definitely a better man than I if you can hear the difference between the same mastering at 96/24 and 44.1/16 on anything less than a decent hi-fi. The only reason I can think of to get standalone units that are HD compatible is if you have got a large HD collection that you listen to on your main hi-fi and don't want keep downsampled copies.
In answer to your query on Chromecast Audio, you can listen to different tracks in different rooms, but not through Spotify. Sonos is the only solution that I am aware of that Spotify will allow multiple streams from at the same time.
I actually moved to Chromecast Audios from Sonos, but the only reason that I did so was because they support 5ghz Wi-Fi and got me away from the problems mentioned above. The main weakness compared to Sonos is the lack of a single app to control them, as they use third part apps like Spotify or Plex to 'cast' music to the units. It takes a bit of getting used to after Sonos' excellent app, but it is actually quite good.
The main upside (apart from 5ghz compatibility)is the price. They are £30 each, so that is a saving of about £250 for each zone that you want to connect to an existing hifi and almost as good for the other zones. I have got one powering a pair of Ruark MR1s with a B&W ASW608 subwoofer and it sounds better to me than a pair of Play 3s with the Sonos sub. My Chromecast system would have cost £680 in total, the Sonos over £1k. I have got another one powering a set up that isn't too far behind and only cost £360.
Sonos seems like a good solution here as you can change the configuration as you like and it is very nice kit. One word of warning is to buy a couple first and check that they work on your network before investing wholesale in them.
I had Sonos for years and spent more time trying to get them to be stable than I did actually enjoying music on them, BUT that was totally down to my own network conditions. If congestion on the 2.4ghz band in your area is as bad as it is in mine (outer London), then Sonos will just not work properly unless every zone is wired. I was actually told that by one of the long-suffering Sonos Tech Support people who has been trying to help me to get it to work.
If you don't have those issues or can use it wired, Sonos seems a rock solid solution.
I'd agree with you about HD Audio and you are definitely a better man than I if you can hear the difference between the same mastering at 96/24 and 44.1/16 on anything less than a decent hi-fi. The only reason I can think of to get standalone units that are HD compatible is if you have got a large HD collection that you listen to on your main hi-fi and don't want keep downsampled copies.
In answer to your query on Chromecast Audio, you can listen to different tracks in different rooms, but not through Spotify. Sonos is the only solution that I am aware of that Spotify will allow multiple streams from at the same time.
I actually moved to Chromecast Audios from Sonos, but the only reason that I did so was because they support 5ghz Wi-Fi and got me away from the problems mentioned above. The main weakness compared to Sonos is the lack of a single app to control them, as they use third part apps like Spotify or Plex to 'cast' music to the units. It takes a bit of getting used to after Sonos' excellent app, but it is actually quite good.
The main upside (apart from 5ghz compatibility)is the price. They are £30 each, so that is a saving of about £250 for each zone that you want to connect to an existing hifi and almost as good for the other zones. I have got one powering a pair of Ruark MR1s with a B&W ASW608 subwoofer and it sounds better to me than a pair of Play 3s with the Sonos sub. My Chromecast system would have cost £680 in total, the Sonos over £1k. I have got another one powering a set up that isn't too far behind and only cost £360.
Harry Flashman said:
For example: Kitchen:
Option 1) Ceiling speakers + Sonos. 1 x Connect Amp + 2 x Monitor Audio CT165 speakers + 1 x Sonos Sub = GBP1150, and add the cost of speaker cable/installation
One more thing!Option 1) Ceiling speakers + Sonos. 1 x Connect Amp + 2 x Monitor Audio CT165 speakers + 1 x Sonos Sub = GBP1150, and add the cost of speaker cable/installation
Unless something has changed since my Sonos days, this option will not work. The Sonos sub is designed to work wirelessly with the Play units or the soundbar, it won't work with the Connect or Connect Amp products.
If you wanted a sub with the Sonos Connect Amp, I think you'd have to buy a third party one with high level inputs and attach it to the speaker outputs of the Connect Amp.
Thank you very much! Very helpful.
I also live in London, so 2.4ghz wifi will be crowded - although we only have neighbours on one side, and being a house, no flats above/below, so hopefully this will be OK for when we want to use the system.
Am I correct that the units link to each other using their own mesh network, avoiding wifi interference? So the crowded 2.4 Ghz issue is just for the actual streaming, not the units speaking to each other? I can plug a couple into Ethernet ports, but it won't be realistic to have every component Ethernet wired. I am a bit unsure as to how the system works, but presumably if each zone has a component wired, this should sort issues with streaming, and if you then turn additional units on, the system beams the music via mesh? If you have all zones on, and each zone is using wifi to stream independently, I can see how this would overload the wifi...
I also live in London, so 2.4ghz wifi will be crowded - although we only have neighbours on one side, and being a house, no flats above/below, so hopefully this will be OK for when we want to use the system.
Am I correct that the units link to each other using their own mesh network, avoiding wifi interference? So the crowded 2.4 Ghz issue is just for the actual streaming, not the units speaking to each other? I can plug a couple into Ethernet ports, but it won't be realistic to have every component Ethernet wired. I am a bit unsure as to how the system works, but presumably if each zone has a component wired, this should sort issues with streaming, and if you then turn additional units on, the system beams the music via mesh? If you have all zones on, and each zone is using wifi to stream independently, I can see how this would overload the wifi...
Harry Flashman said:
Thank you very much! Very helpful.
I also live in London, so 2.4ghz wifi will be crowded - although we only have neighbours on one side, and being a house, no flats above/below, so hopefully this will be OK for when we want to use the system.
You will probably be fine. Most people only have positive experiences with Sonos connectivity and a lot of the ones who have problems don't go through all of the painstaking steps that I have to fix it. I live in an area that is full of flats, and if I search for a Wi-Fi network on my Mac it 'sees' up to 15 at any one time! If I were you, I'd buy one (Sonos do a 90 day no risk trial) to see if it works well. If it doesn't, call Sonos support who will guide you through the steps to sort it out, and if it still doesn't work then you might have to look elsewhere.I also live in London, so 2.4ghz wifi will be crowded - although we only have neighbours on one side, and being a house, no flats above/below, so hopefully this will be OK for when we want to use the system.
Harry Flashman said:
Am I correct that the units link to each other using their own mesh network, avoiding wifi interference? So the crowded 2.4 Ghz issue is just for the actual streaming, not the units speaking to each other? I can plug a couple into Ethernet ports, but it won't be realistic to have every component Ethernet wired. I am a bit unsure as to how the system works, but presumably if each zone has a component wired, this should sort issues with streaming, and if you then turn additional units on, the system beams the music via mesh? If you have all zones on, and each zone is using wifi to stream independently, I can see how this would overload the wifi...
Originally, Sonos relied on a mesh network where one unit was directly wired to the router and communicated with the rest wirelessly. A couple of years ago, Sonos made that optional so that the standard implementation was no units wired and everything running over Wi-Fi, and only if you had problems would you revert to mesh.In my case, I moved from using a Sonos Bridge as the wired unit, to using a Play 3, then to Wi-Fi only and finally I went back to mesh with the Sonos Boost, which is a more powerful version of the Bridge.
None of them worked for me, although I will say that the Boost was better than the Bridge or the Wifi. You can actually bring up a status page on your PC which shows exactly the signal strength going to each unit (although definitely don't do that as it is soul destroying and sucks your life away!!)
My limited understanding of the mesh network is that it still runs at 2.4ghz, so if you have problems with that band, you are likely to have problems with it as well.
As you say, six zones all streaming separate lossless feeds is going to be much worse than a couple streaming MP3.
My understanding is quite limited to be honest. My Apple TV has connected to my 2.4ghz network before and had no problem streaming 1080p video with Dolby Digital sound, but when I turn Sonos on to stream an MP3 from Spotify it wouldn't work at all!
How many zones in reality?
My AV receiver (Yamaha 3040) allows control you to set up either one 11.2 'mega cinema' or, assuming you want a more normal 5.1/5.2 system for the main room, different wired zones for spare speaker outlets. Admittedly not multiple different at the same time and you can't have too many zones and it is a bit limited but if you want one main room and the rest are just for background could work.
Control is a little clunky but can be iPad based with streaming/NAS etc.
Cuts down on the number/cost of Sonos Connects
But isn't as flexible.
My AV receiver (Yamaha 3040) allows control you to set up either one 11.2 'mega cinema' or, assuming you want a more normal 5.1/5.2 system for the main room, different wired zones for spare speaker outlets. Admittedly not multiple different at the same time and you can't have too many zones and it is a bit limited but if you want one main room and the rest are just for background could work.
Control is a little clunky but can be iPad based with streaming/NAS etc.
Cuts down on the number/cost of Sonos Connects
But isn't as flexible.
kingston12 said:
One more thing!
Unless something has changed since my Sonos days, this option will not work. The Sonos sub is designed to work wirelessly with the Play units or the soundbar, it won't work with the Connect or Connect Amp products.
If you wanted a sub with the Sonos Connect Amp, I think you'd have to buy a third party one with high level inputs and attach it to the speaker outputs of the Connect Amp.
If you use a Connect Amp and celing speakers you can save a small fortune by connecting almost any powered sub to the "sub output" of the Connect Amp. There is no real benefit of using the very expensive Sonos Sub. Unless something has changed since my Sonos days, this option will not work. The Sonos sub is designed to work wirelessly with the Play units or the soundbar, it won't work with the Connect or Connect Amp products.
If you wanted a sub with the Sonos Connect Amp, I think you'd have to buy a third party one with high level inputs and attach it to the speaker outputs of the Connect Amp.
In my opinion there really isn't the need for subs when using in ceiling speakers.
The 6" drivers carry quite a lot of bass, if you want more then just upgrade to a 8" driver and you'll be fine.
Saves quite a stack of money per zone. Be realistic about what you are going to listen to and be doing in each zone. I would spend money on getting just one room working as a dedicated listening space and the rest as just back ground enjoyment rather than just OK everywhere.
Just done this for a client and although he spent SERIOUS money on the 2channel set up it is a stonking performing space.
V.
The 6" drivers carry quite a lot of bass, if you want more then just upgrade to a 8" driver and you'll be fine.
Saves quite a stack of money per zone. Be realistic about what you are going to listen to and be doing in each zone. I would spend money on getting just one room working as a dedicated listening space and the rest as just back ground enjoyment rather than just OK everywhere.
Just done this for a client and although he spent SERIOUS money on the 2channel set up it is a stonking performing space.
V.
VEX said:
In my opinion there really isn't the need for subs when using in ceiling speakers.
The 6" drivers carry quite a lot of bass, if you want more then just upgrade to a 8" driver and you'll be fine.
Saves quite a stack of money per zone. Be realistic about what you are going to listen to and be doing in each zone. I would spend money on getting just one room working as a dedicated listening space and the rest as just back ground enjoyment rather than just OK everywhere.
Just done this for a client and although he spent SERIOUS money on the 2channel set up it is a stonking performing space.
V.
+1 for not requiring a sub with ceiling speakers. I thought I'd hide the sub from a surplus 5.1 sub/sat system in my boiler cupboard in a corner of the kitchen but it's just not necessary. I have a Connect Amp and a pair of 6" Monitor Audios in the ceiling in a large kitchen. The 6" drivers carry quite a lot of bass, if you want more then just upgrade to a 8" driver and you'll be fine.
Saves quite a stack of money per zone. Be realistic about what you are going to listen to and be doing in each zone. I would spend money on getting just one room working as a dedicated listening space and the rest as just back ground enjoyment rather than just OK everywhere.
Just done this for a client and although he spent SERIOUS money on the 2channel set up it is a stonking performing space.
V.
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