How do pre/power AV amps work?
Discussion
Excuse the stupid question lol.
But what are the benefits over a normal AVR? And as ea example I've been looking at the Emotiva range and they have the 5 and 7 Channel amps, but don't seem to have have subwoofer outs. Are these a seperate module?
And can you mix and match brands on Pre and power amps? For example could I add a Marantz power amp to a Yamaha AVR?
Alex.
But what are the benefits over a normal AVR? And as ea example I've been looking at the Emotiva range and they have the 5 and 7 Channel amps, but don't seem to have have subwoofer outs. Are these a seperate module?
And can you mix and match brands on Pre and power amps? For example could I add a Marantz power amp to a Yamaha AVR?
Alex.
In the context you are asking, they work in the same way that a stereo pre-amp & power amp combination works.
A pre-amp/processor takes the signal from your source (Sky, Blu-ray player, whatever) and decodes/processes the digital audio signal (e.g. Dolby Atmos) and send the analogue signal to the correct outputs.
These outputs (still un-amplified), all in single channel form, are then sent to a power amp (or multiple power amps) that amplify the signal that is then out to the speakers.
The sub output would be found on the pre-amp as most subs are active - i.e. they have their own power amp built in.
A pre-amp/processor takes the signal from your source (Sky, Blu-ray player, whatever) and decodes/processes the digital audio signal (e.g. Dolby Atmos) and send the analogue signal to the correct outputs.
These outputs (still un-amplified), all in single channel form, are then sent to a power amp (or multiple power amps) that amplify the signal that is then out to the speakers.
The sub output would be found on the pre-amp as most subs are active - i.e. they have their own power amp built in.
And the benefits are the same as for two channel stereo. Keeping all those channels separate should improve the quality of what comes out of the speakers. However, it can very quickly become very expensive and take up a lot of room.
Most people would rather buy a better AVR, especially if they're married!
Most people would rather buy a better AVR, especially if they're married!
And the benefits are the same as for two channel stereo. Keeping all those channels separate should improve the quality of what comes out of the speakers. However, it can very quickly become very expensive and take up a lot of room.
Most people would rather buy a better AVR, especially if they're married!
Most people would rather buy a better AVR, especially if they're married!
I have a Yamaha Aventage amp which comes with pre-outs so I’ve assigned these to a NAD stereo power amp which powers the front stereo speakers. I also have a BK active sub connected to the LFE output of the AV amp.
Sub is definitely worth it even for music as it creates bass you can feel as well as hear. I’ve set the crossover to 70hz which lets the speakers (full range ProAc studio) concentrate on the higher frequency stuff. The AV amp powers the centre and rear speakers.
It sounds good even at ear splitting power levels and the principle is to provide plenty of headroom so I cannot turn it up above -10 dB.
As above, it takes up more room than I’d like but I have a very understanding wife!
Sub is definitely worth it even for music as it creates bass you can feel as well as hear. I’ve set the crossover to 70hz which lets the speakers (full range ProAc studio) concentrate on the higher frequency stuff. The AV amp powers the centre and rear speakers.
It sounds good even at ear splitting power levels and the principle is to provide plenty of headroom so I cannot turn it up above -10 dB.
As above, it takes up more room than I’d like but I have a very understanding wife!
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th December 11:39
We’ve got a Sherborne PA-350 power amp which is the fore-runner to the Emotiva line fed by a Denon AVR-7200wa driving some old school KEF Refence loud speakers. The only speakers the Denon drives are 4 x R50 Atmos speakers and the LFE to the sub.
The Denon produced a decent enough sound but the Sherborne is just incredible! If you have room, power (20 amp) and your AV rack can hold the weight (50kg) then I think you’ll be impressed with what a 7 channel Emotiva can do.
The Denon produced a decent enough sound but the Sherborne is just incredible! If you have room, power (20 amp) and your AV rack can hold the weight (50kg) then I think you’ll be impressed with what a 7 channel Emotiva can do.
Sometimes it can be more cost effective to use a separate power amp; in my case I bought the cheaper Arcam AVR390 AVR as I already had a (used) Arcam P7 power amp. This saved me buying the much more expensive 550 or 850 model, plus I have more power (all channels driven) than even the top 850 AVR would have given me: The pre amp stage and all important Dirac room eq processing is exactly the same in all the models, unless you consider that a toroidal transformer in the dearer models makes any difference to the pre amp 'sound'.
I still needed a couple of channels to power 2 of the Atmos speakers, but these are driven by the internal amps in the 390. Many AVRs are spec'd quite dishonestly IMHO as they rarely quote the wattage with all channels driven (to be fair Arcam do, though my 390 drops to something like 80 watts per channel, compared to 230 watts per channel all driven in the separate P7 power amp (4 ohms speakers). Not that I tend to listen at full chat, but it doesn't hurt having decent headroom; previous AVR only set ups tended to sound a bit more 'harsh' which was probably down to increased distortion on the louder peaks. Only using two of the 390 built in channels for lesser used Atmos speakers means it doesn't have to spread that power across 7 speakers, so can cope much better.
Of course it adds complexity, though in my case it's only extra cables as a 12 volt trigger turns on the separate power amp with the AVR390 acting as a pre-amp.It also requires extra space in your rack too, but I have mine under my stairs outside the room, so don't care about the looks or the extra space needed.
If you only want/ have room for a single box, then consider the higher output models if you like to listen at anything much above typical TV listening levels. If you don't care about the added boxes/space requirements/complexity then get a decent used power amp.
I still needed a couple of channels to power 2 of the Atmos speakers, but these are driven by the internal amps in the 390. Many AVRs are spec'd quite dishonestly IMHO as they rarely quote the wattage with all channels driven (to be fair Arcam do, though my 390 drops to something like 80 watts per channel, compared to 230 watts per channel all driven in the separate P7 power amp (4 ohms speakers). Not that I tend to listen at full chat, but it doesn't hurt having decent headroom; previous AVR only set ups tended to sound a bit more 'harsh' which was probably down to increased distortion on the louder peaks. Only using two of the 390 built in channels for lesser used Atmos speakers means it doesn't have to spread that power across 7 speakers, so can cope much better.
Of course it adds complexity, though in my case it's only extra cables as a 12 volt trigger turns on the separate power amp with the AVR390 acting as a pre-amp.It also requires extra space in your rack too, but I have mine under my stairs outside the room, so don't care about the looks or the extra space needed.
If you only want/ have room for a single box, then consider the higher output models if you like to listen at anything much above typical TV listening levels. If you don't care about the added boxes/space requirements/complexity then get a decent used power amp.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 26th December 18:08
As Oldskool said above, all in one amps/receivers tend to rate the power as all channels driven, where as power amps are each channel.
I used a Cinepro 3K6SE amp for years for home cinema, this was 6 channels rated at 300wpc.
However, this is each channel, and it is actually 300wpc into 8ohm and 500wpc into 6ohm and 700wpc or something like that into 4ohm. Hence the name 3K.
Compare that to the flagships from Denon, Yamaha, Arcam at the time and they could only muster about 100wpc into 2 speakers, when you had all 5 channels it was more like 65wpc.
In the end I ran the 3k6 bridged across the front three channels, 1800wpc. That had quite frightening dynamics.
Always worth getting a decent power amp/amps.
I used a Cinepro 3K6SE amp for years for home cinema, this was 6 channels rated at 300wpc.
However, this is each channel, and it is actually 300wpc into 8ohm and 500wpc into 6ohm and 700wpc or something like that into 4ohm. Hence the name 3K.
Compare that to the flagships from Denon, Yamaha, Arcam at the time and they could only muster about 100wpc into 2 speakers, when you had all 5 channels it was more like 65wpc.
In the end I ran the 3k6 bridged across the front three channels, 1800wpc. That had quite frightening dynamics.
Always worth getting a decent power amp/amps.
EmmaJ said:
We’ve got a Sherborne PA-350 power amp which is the fore-runner to the Emotiva line fed by a Denon AVR-7200wa driving some old school KEF Refence loud speakers. The only speakers the Denon drives are 4 x R50 Atmos speakers and the LFE to the sub.
The Denon produced a decent enough sound but the Sherborne is just incredible! If you have room, power (20 amp) and your AV rack can hold the weight (50kg) then I think you’ll be impressed with what a 7 channel Emotiva can do.
Great to hear as I will be doing something with the new Emotiva lines in the new year here in the UK.The Denon produced a decent enough sound but the Sherborne is just incredible! If you have room, power (20 amp) and your AV rack can hold the weight (50kg) then I think you’ll be impressed with what a 7 channel Emotiva can do.
That all makes sense thanks 
It seems also that most AVRs on the market now are packed with stuff I dont want, like all the multiroom and music streaming stuff. Which I appreciate most people do.
So for me, a more basic but higher specced unit would suit me better.
legzr1 said:
Might have missed this in an earlier post but when specs and codecs change (and they will) you only need to update the processor rather than the whole lot - keeping separate power amplification for the updated processor can save a few ££££ in the long run.
It would be nice if they stuck with something for a while lol.It seems also that most AVRs on the market now are packed with stuff I dont want, like all the multiroom and music streaming stuff. Which I appreciate most people do.
So for me, a more basic but higher specced unit would suit me better.
People get carried away with the latest formats, often buying a cheaper processor to get them
I have fallen for it myself many times.
I stuck with Meridian in the end though, regular 5.1, the HD tracks only available with an extra processor or the player decoding, but even regular DD or DTS sounded better than some of the newer processors.
I just sold my Meridian G68 for £600, I had two, one I was using for a stereo pre amp as it has superb dacs, room correction etc. and one for TV films.
The guy who bought one had the latest and greatest processor from Marantz I think he said, but he wanted to improve the music side of things, hence trying the Meridian. He was gobsmacked that the Meridian sounded 'so much better' with films as well and that was just feeding vanilla DD and Pro Logic to it.
So you don't have to spend a fortune.
I have fallen for it myself many times.
I stuck with Meridian in the end though, regular 5.1, the HD tracks only available with an extra processor or the player decoding, but even regular DD or DTS sounded better than some of the newer processors.
I just sold my Meridian G68 for £600, I had two, one I was using for a stereo pre amp as it has superb dacs, room correction etc. and one for TV films.
The guy who bought one had the latest and greatest processor from Marantz I think he said, but he wanted to improve the music side of things, hence trying the Meridian. He was gobsmacked that the Meridian sounded 'so much better' with films as well and that was just feeding vanilla DD and Pro Logic to it.
So you don't have to spend a fortune.
Just to add, there’s loads of good quality stuff to be had on EBay for a reasonable price. My speakers and power amp were sourced locally and came immaculate and barely used.
By comparison, my brother has some new Tannoy floor standers powered by a 2ch Marantz amp. Sounds ok but muddy by comparison. Always worth investing in quality kit.
By comparison, my brother has some new Tannoy floor standers powered by a 2ch Marantz amp. Sounds ok but muddy by comparison. Always worth investing in quality kit.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 27th December 11:25
Gizlaroc is right. I use the analogy of buying good lenses for photography. Buy the best, buy wisely, and they last a lifetime. Buy cheap, buy twice, never satisfied.
I've had my hifi amps for over 18 years now and apart from the occasional service they're hassle free, a pleasure to use, they'll see me out. No eq, no tone controls, just volume, balance, source and mute.
If only home cinema boxes could be as simple!
I've had my hifi amps for over 18 years now and apart from the occasional service they're hassle free, a pleasure to use, they'll see me out. No eq, no tone controls, just volume, balance, source and mute.
If only home cinema boxes could be as simple!
I should have added, the G68 (currently called a G65 with speakerlink outsputs as well, but the same apart from that) is a £4500 surround pre amp. The fact you can buy it for £600 is just crazy, but if it doesn't have 11.2 channels etc. no one wants it, they would rather buy some pretty crap sounding £2000 all in one surround amp that makes them a cuppa in the morning.
gizlaroc said:
I should have added, the G68 (currently called a G65 with speakerlink outsputs as well, but the same apart from that) is a £4500 surround pre amp. The fact you can buy it for £600 is just crazy, but if it doesn't have 11.2 channels etc. no one wants it, they would rather buy some pretty crap sounding £2000 all in one surround amp that makes them a cuppa in the morning.
I'm sure we've had this conversation before but I picked up a £6K Krell for £400 a couple of years ago. More recently I got a Marantz 8801 processor with everything barring HDR pass-through - guess what? 5.1 DD or DTS through the Krell was a match for any of the stupid trueHD 11.2 from the Marantz. Analogue stereo or PCM input using on-board DACs was no competition.And this is 'progress'? (Not really comparing like for like as far as new prices go though).
I really tried to like the Marantz because the HDMI switching, Spotify, network hub and HD streaming made life so much easier. Lovely piece of kit to use too. I've junked it all and gone back to stereo - plain, simple and sounds good which is the important thing for me.
Soundbar and (silly) sub for occasional movie time.
I guess we all get itchy feet sometimes? Keep reading the forums about how wonderful the latest formats are, but the pre amp needs to be a good pre amp, doesn't matter how much trickery is inside, if it is not good you can't try and make it good with loads of dsp functions.
I have settled on an old Arcam Solo Movie 5.1 for TV viewing, it is smooth in stereo mode, so with a Quad 405 on the main channels it does the job nicely.
If I didn't have a stupid curved OLED I would have got the Solo Soundbar.
I wish I hadn't sold the Meridian to be honest, the way that wraps sound between the speakers is just so good, no matter what format is playing.
I have settled on an old Arcam Solo Movie 5.1 for TV viewing, it is smooth in stereo mode, so with a Quad 405 on the main channels it does the job nicely.
If I didn't have a stupid curved OLED I would have got the Solo Soundbar.
I wish I hadn't sold the Meridian to be honest, the way that wraps sound between the speakers is just so good, no matter what format is playing.
Tony Starks said:
But what are the benefits over a normal AVR?
At the same price point, the manufacturer should be able to produce a better Pre/Pro compared to an AV as they don't need to spend money on internal amps and other bits. So in theory, a Pre/Pro will be better than an AV receiver at a similar price point from the same manufacture, whether the listener can actually tell will depend.AV Receiver manufacturers are well known for making up their numbers when it comes to the power ratings, sites like SoundAndVision bench tests in their reviews and state the differences. So if you have a larger room or demanding speakers, or like to listen loud than the a power amp is a much safer bet for honest clean power.
Many people don't actually buy a pre, they use a AV receiver with a power amp. As AV receivers and Pre/pro's depreciate heavily and very quickly as new models are released and tech changes, upgrading by buying mid-range AV receivers over the years and using the same power amp with them can be cost effective over a top of range receiver.
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 27th December 18:22
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