Cable Separation - Speaker level, Line in, Power, etc
Discussion
Re-wiring the house and hard-wiring some audio. How close can I run various cables?
I am also going to be running some speaker-level wiring from the four ground floor rooms back to central amp. Presumably these are reasonably robust being speaker level. Can I run them alongside power cables or is that pushing it too far? To keep costs reasonable and to future proof I am going to run these in 1.5mm (or 2.5mm?) twin and earth which gives a reasonable speaker cable but also allows me to re-wire it as a power cable and move over to Sonos-style system. I thought I would then also run a network cable to each location perhaps.
Most music is expected to come from a Cromecast audio located with the amp. But I though I would also run a couple of 'line-in' cables (cable spec tbc) to core locations (kitchen, my best guess for tv location, maybe the office) so I can plug in a local source/sources in these rooms. Not sure if these might be more sensitive to running too close to power, and or speaker-level cables, network? In an ideal world im sure everything would be run at 300 centres, but the hall is only a finite width and each spacing in a line of floorboards or lath & plaster ceiling I have to cut out and rip up!
In another thread in home & garden it was suggested network should be 300mm from power and light, or run at right angles, including the chasing done the wall, and that TV/FM coax can be run with network without issues, but I thought here was more suitable to for audio questions!
Daniel
I am also going to be running some speaker-level wiring from the four ground floor rooms back to central amp. Presumably these are reasonably robust being speaker level. Can I run them alongside power cables or is that pushing it too far? To keep costs reasonable and to future proof I am going to run these in 1.5mm (or 2.5mm?) twin and earth which gives a reasonable speaker cable but also allows me to re-wire it as a power cable and move over to Sonos-style system. I thought I would then also run a network cable to each location perhaps.
Most music is expected to come from a Cromecast audio located with the amp. But I though I would also run a couple of 'line-in' cables (cable spec tbc) to core locations (kitchen, my best guess for tv location, maybe the office) so I can plug in a local source/sources in these rooms. Not sure if these might be more sensitive to running too close to power, and or speaker-level cables, network? In an ideal world im sure everything would be run at 300 centres, but the hall is only a finite width and each spacing in a line of floorboards or lath & plaster ceiling I have to cut out and rip up!
In another thread in home & garden it was suggested network should be 300mm from power and light, or run at right angles, including the chasing done the wall, and that TV/FM coax can be run with network without issues, but I thought here was more suitable to for audio questions!
Daniel
Yes, but your main request is not covered in there, about line level.
This deffinately will need seperation from POWER / Mains as it is an analogue signal fomate with no clever noise cancellation. You might be cable to find some electronics that converts to twisted pair (Cat5/6) but it would have to be active (powered) to offer the noise cancellation and certainly would need testing before use.
Basically the twists in CAT cable are so that any noise appears on both cores of the pair, then the electronics uses differential signalling to extract the data, anthing that is common to both can be ignored. This cant / doesnt happen with analogue signals.
So basically, a massive YES to seperation, maybe even metal conduit to help isolate it.
You will also need to watch your earthing and make sure they are common between the source equipment and the amplification.
I had a big problem with a NAIM amp and Chord DAC located together in the same cabinet, mains hum kept the active speakers awake and it turned out the audio side of the NAIM was designed to be earthed by other bits of kit in the system, but because the DAC wasnt either and the feed to the DAC was Optical, no earth was being provided. I had to open up the NAIM and wire in my own earth internally!
HTH
V.
This deffinately will need seperation from POWER / Mains as it is an analogue signal fomate with no clever noise cancellation. You might be cable to find some electronics that converts to twisted pair (Cat5/6) but it would have to be active (powered) to offer the noise cancellation and certainly would need testing before use.
Basically the twists in CAT cable are so that any noise appears on both cores of the pair, then the electronics uses differential signalling to extract the data, anthing that is common to both can be ignored. This cant / doesnt happen with analogue signals.
So basically, a massive YES to seperation, maybe even metal conduit to help isolate it.
You will also need to watch your earthing and make sure they are common between the source equipment and the amplification.
I had a big problem with a NAIM amp and Chord DAC located together in the same cabinet, mains hum kept the active speakers awake and it turned out the audio side of the NAIM was designed to be earthed by other bits of kit in the system, but because the DAC wasnt either and the feed to the DAC was Optical, no earth was being provided. I had to open up the NAIM and wire in my own earth internally!
HTH
V.
Edited by VEX on Friday 30th November 11:01
Comments appreciated, however speaker level cables are mentioned, and the suggestion is that they are suitably robust that there will no be an issue.
Aware of issues with earth loops, which is a valid concern, however will hopefully be ok else we can address at the time. Certainly normal operation is in effect just long speaker cables, with the source being an intergrated amp and chromecast audio.
Daniel
Aware of issues with earth loops, which is a valid concern, however will hopefully be ok else we can address at the time. Certainly normal operation is in effect just long speaker cables, with the source being an intergrated amp and chromecast audio.
Daniel
Speaker level - fine.
Line level - keep well away from AC (mains) or you'll get hum.
Cat5e - I run a 50m cable round the outside of a building cable tied to... the main power feed to 21 flats. It runs at 1Gb with no issues. I used Shielded twisted pair and earth one end with the drain wire. I'm an ex IT manager and most of the offices I've managed have no seperation when it comes to LAN and power cables. They all end up in the same cable trays.
Line level - keep well away from AC (mains) or you'll get hum.
Cat5e - I run a 50m cable round the outside of a building cable tied to... the main power feed to 21 flats. It runs at 1Gb with no issues. I used Shielded twisted pair and earth one end with the drain wire. I'm an ex IT manager and most of the offices I've managed have no seperation when it comes to LAN and power cables. They all end up in the same cable trays.
dhutch said:
TonyRPH said:
Ideally you should be using something like this to send the line level audio any kind of distance.
Ah right. Yeah, that's nice. Thanks. https://www.connectorco.com/product/muxlab-stereo-...
https://www.connectorco.com/category/audio-distrib...
There aren't many other stockists although Canford do carry them. CPC don't seem to have the whole range. And just to be pedantic, you only need these for consumer unbalanced line levels signals, not balanced ones.
Mr Pointy said:
f you heading off in that direction have a look at Muxlab. They have a faceplate with the transformer built in:
https://www.connectorco.com/product/muxlab-stereo-...
https://www.connectorco.com/category/audio-distrib...
There aren't many other stockists although Canford do carry them. CPC don't seem to have the whole range. And just to be pedantic, you only need these for consumer unbalanced line levels signals, not balanced ones.
This.....https://www.connectorco.com/product/muxlab-stereo-...
https://www.connectorco.com/category/audio-distrib...
There aren't many other stockists although Canford do carry them. CPC don't seem to have the whole range. And just to be pedantic, you only need these for consumer unbalanced line levels signals, not balanced ones.
Also never had much luck with those CPC audio to cat5 adaptors I've got a good few sets at home from a project that I ended up refusing to use.
Speaker cables can be ran with mains.
Unbalanced (phono connection /3.5mm jack cables) try and keep away from mains if over a few meters long.
But run it over UTP network cable, rather than a sheild audio cable and run balanced audio over that?
I understand Canford may not sell to me direct.
I understand Canford may not sell to me direct.
Mr Pointy said:
ere's some similar audio cables from CPC which you might be able to order from more easily than Canford:
https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/c...
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/1pair100m/cable-...
Danielhttps://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/c...
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/1pair100m/cable-...
There are two major issues with running long (unbalanced) screened cables.
The first is that of hum pick up, and they will pick up hum, no matter what.
The second is, the top end frequency response will vary because of the capacitance of the cable, and the device it is connected to - e.g. a high output impedance can result in a massive (audible) drop in top end response.
Most modern equipment has relatively low output impedances (usually around 50 to 150 ohms) however not all - and even then, the high capacitive load of the cable can cause instability (of the line stage driving the cable) in some cases.
You can run balanced cables, but then you will need a balanced to unbalanced converter at each end of the cable, and accompanying power supplies for said devices.
You could use special audio transformers to do the balanced / unbalanced conversion, however these are expensive.
If the CAT5/6 cable is run (and terminated) correctly, using audio over cat 5 converters should present no real issues, so long as you follow the guidelines for cable lengths.
Additionally, these converters are usually not designed to plug into network switches - they are an 'end to end' solution.
I have run hi res video (1920 x 1080) over a ~75M run of CAT6 with no issues, so if it's that easy to send video, audio should be easier still, as the bandwidth requirements are much, much less.
The first is that of hum pick up, and they will pick up hum, no matter what.
The second is, the top end frequency response will vary because of the capacitance of the cable, and the device it is connected to - e.g. a high output impedance can result in a massive (audible) drop in top end response.
Most modern equipment has relatively low output impedances (usually around 50 to 150 ohms) however not all - and even then, the high capacitive load of the cable can cause instability (of the line stage driving the cable) in some cases.
You can run balanced cables, but then you will need a balanced to unbalanced converter at each end of the cable, and accompanying power supplies for said devices.
You could use special audio transformers to do the balanced / unbalanced conversion, however these are expensive.
If the CAT5/6 cable is run (and terminated) correctly, using audio over cat 5 converters should present no real issues, so long as you follow the guidelines for cable lengths.
Additionally, these converters are usually not designed to plug into network switches - they are an 'end to end' solution.
I have run hi res video (1920 x 1080) over a ~75M run of CAT6 with no issues, so if it's that easy to send video, audio should be easier still, as the bandwidth requirements are much, much less.
dhutch said:
But run it over UTP network cable, rather than a sheild audio cable and run balanced audio over that?
I understand Canford may not sell to me direct.
I don't get what you mean, can you clarify?I understand Canford may not sell to me direct.
Mr Pointy said:
ere's some similar audio cables from CPC which you might be able to order from more easily than Canford:
https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/c...
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/1pair100m/cable-...
https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/c...
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/1pair100m/cable-...
dhutch said:
As in, the suggestion now is maybe to send the audio over network cable with some form of end-to-end adapter, rather than us screened audio and send either balanced or unbalanced audio.
Ok, this has got a bit more confused so maybe this will help.The cable isn't really an issue in this case, it's just a transport mechanism. You can use either Cat6 or FST, the difference is the converter you use. In the past FST would have been the only cable available, now everyone & his dog knows what a Cat cable looks like & can sort of put an end on. There's not much wrong with running audio over Cat6 as it's a nicely made data cable (not much copper in it though) hence the converters are now available with RL45 sockets on them as well as XLR3 which is what they would use if using FST cable.
The issue is the nature of the unbalanced audio signal to need to transmit; it's not good at going more than a couple of meters as it's fairly low level, prone to pickup interference & the fact that one of the wires is a ground leads to earthing issues. Hence we need to convert it to a balanced signal it if we want to go any distance.
We can do this two ways: passively (using a transformer) or actively using powered electronics. The issue with using a transformer is that it's not cheap to make one that handles audio signals well. Of course there are cheap units available, but they are very compromised, as a couple of posters have said. Some converters are £100 plus each, like this one:
https://www.canford.co.uk/Products/21257/49-274_CA...
In this transformer group are Muxlab devices I suggested. I've not used them, but they write a good spec sheet:
https://www.canford.co.uk/ProductResources/resourc...
If you went for these you would pull a single Cat6 in of course.
The even more expensive option is to use an electronic balancing unit These need power & are a bit bulkier but will definately work. If you go this route it's more likely you'd run FST in.
I'm not sure if this helps much but if you could run in FST & Cat6 you would be covered either way.
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff