Discussion
Anyone got any recommendations for a reasonable Audio Visual company ?
Im planning a new build and want some stuff doing not interested in full home automation but Sonos, surround sound in living room Tv distribution some cat6 and maybe some other ideas i hadn't though of.
Just had a budget cost from a local company and it was 2.5K for cables 1.5k to draw a schematic and 1k for assistance for first fix.
Maybe I'm out of touch but that just seems mental, I'm sure me and my electrician could sort it out but id rather give that area over to someone else and concentrate on other stuff
Cheers in advance
Based between swindon and cirencester
SS
It really depend on what you want from your 'specialist'
If you just want a drawing of what we would do with little or no discussion, involvement or evolution of drawings or ideas, then yes it is expencive.
If you want help coming up with a scheme, evolving it to meet your needs and changing and your own idea evolve. Then every itteration needs a drawing and possibly a meeting / conversation. It the £1500 isnt over the top at all. I find that an initial meeting takes 2 - 3 hours, presentation of initial drawing another 3, evolution of ideas and subsequent meetings 2 hours minimum. If you factor in travel time and office drawings and specification time, it soon mounts up.
I am in the middle of a 1st fix for a client, on our 6th iteration of drawings and have site meetings every monday, for a 6 bed, 3 storey house and so far it has eaten about 7Km of cable.
Cables. Yes you can use your own, but will they do what we need them to do, even down to different colours for different services to help with layouts and termination later. What spec will be installed, despite what we ask for. It is honestly easier for us to supply cable and electricians complete the 1st fix. They usually prefer that because is takes the head-ache of sourcing it away from them.
How many rooms and what do you want to achieve in you scheme?
V.
If you just want a drawing of what we would do with little or no discussion, involvement or evolution of drawings or ideas, then yes it is expencive.
If you want help coming up with a scheme, evolving it to meet your needs and changing and your own idea evolve. Then every itteration needs a drawing and possibly a meeting / conversation. It the £1500 isnt over the top at all. I find that an initial meeting takes 2 - 3 hours, presentation of initial drawing another 3, evolution of ideas and subsequent meetings 2 hours minimum. If you factor in travel time and office drawings and specification time, it soon mounts up.
I am in the middle of a 1st fix for a client, on our 6th iteration of drawings and have site meetings every monday, for a 6 bed, 3 storey house and so far it has eaten about 7Km of cable.
Cables. Yes you can use your own, but will they do what we need them to do, even down to different colours for different services to help with layouts and termination later. What spec will be installed, despite what we ask for. It is honestly easier for us to supply cable and electricians complete the 1st fix. They usually prefer that because is takes the head-ache of sourcing it away from them.
How many rooms and what do you want to achieve in you scheme?
V.
Hi Vex thanks for the reply !
What I'm after is someone to come up with the design supply the cables or spec them for us we run them in and then for someone to come back terminate it all and commission it.
Its a 4 bed house 244 m2 so not huge but its nice, i don't think really want to achieve much really, like i said in the living room we would like a surround sound system, sky DVD ect all tucked away in a rack somewhere Tv points throughout the house, Sonos in several areas (in ceiling speakers) and possibly some cat cable running although my current house has a CAT network and its never used except i believe the sonos connects are plugged into it.
Also open to ideas but want to keep it simple.
The main living area is open plan and I'm going to use a luton grafik eye for the lighting in this area everywhere else standard switches.
I was at 4.5k just to get to first fix
Here is the latest floor plan and I'm just after a rough budget figure at the moment as its currently in planning but signs are very good.
What I'm after is someone to come up with the design supply the cables or spec them for us we run them in and then for someone to come back terminate it all and commission it.
Its a 4 bed house 244 m2 so not huge but its nice, i don't think really want to achieve much really, like i said in the living room we would like a surround sound system, sky DVD ect all tucked away in a rack somewhere Tv points throughout the house, Sonos in several areas (in ceiling speakers) and possibly some cat cable running although my current house has a CAT network and its never used except i believe the sonos connects are plugged into it.
Also open to ideas but want to keep it simple.
The main living area is open plan and I'm going to use a luton grafik eye for the lighting in this area everywhere else standard switches.
I was at 4.5k just to get to first fix
Here is the latest floor plan and I'm just after a rough budget figure at the moment as its currently in planning but signs are very good.
Ok, a quick rattle through a budgeting spread sheet I have built (for just such an occasion)
I think you are around £3k for 1st fix, design & support (about 50/50 split between cable and design / support)
And then a further £7 - £10K all-in for second fix, depending on hardware spec and using Rako rather then Lutron, (Cheaper and more flixible)
This is all with VAT at Zero Rate for relevant parts as per VAT Rules for New Builds.
I think you are around £3k for 1st fix, design & support (about 50/50 split between cable and design / support)
And then a further £7 - £10K all-in for second fix, depending on hardware spec and using Rako rather then Lutron, (Cheaper and more flixible)
This is all with VAT at Zero Rate for relevant parts as per VAT Rules for New Builds.
I moved into a 2bed new build last year, and I got my house networked up by the electrician doing the wiring anyway. Spoke to site manager and explained why etc and he was happy for me to speak to the electrician, I contacted him and had a chat about what i wanted as i am fairly switched on with networking.
My setup is likely a lot simplier than yours would be, but essentially I have 2 cables for redundancy going to each location and my central hub is in a cupboard under my stairs in which I have my WD MyCloud and a netgear 24port switch.
Under here i have 6 ports running 2 cables to my living room for my tv area(i still have a hub under tv for this stuff), 2 to my spare room for my desktop gaming PC and 2 to my own bedroom in case i get a smart tv etc
The electrician would only put in cat5e so as I knew i wanted at least cat6, he advised best for me to get the bits so ports and backing plates and drop them off to him. I actually ended up getting some 'cat7' in the end due to better speeds, and as it was going in the wall i wanted it to be the best it could be because of this.
I gave him all the bits, on site i told him where i wanted stuff and how it was going to work as i designed it all myself but cost in total was a few hundered all in i think. Not sure if that is any help at all
My setup is likely a lot simplier than yours would be, but essentially I have 2 cables for redundancy going to each location and my central hub is in a cupboard under my stairs in which I have my WD MyCloud and a netgear 24port switch.
Under here i have 6 ports running 2 cables to my living room for my tv area(i still have a hub under tv for this stuff), 2 to my spare room for my desktop gaming PC and 2 to my own bedroom in case i get a smart tv etc
The electrician would only put in cat5e so as I knew i wanted at least cat6, he advised best for me to get the bits so ports and backing plates and drop them off to him. I actually ended up getting some 'cat7' in the end due to better speeds, and as it was going in the wall i wanted it to be the best it could be because of this.
I gave him all the bits, on site i told him where i wanted stuff and how it was going to work as i designed it all myself but cost in total was a few hundered all in i think. Not sure if that is any help at all
You can certainly come up with a spec yourself. It’s not difficult if you do some research.
For data use at least Cat 6 or 7 and do not under provide. I use 8 just for AV stuff. Do not rely on wi fi everywhere
Power sockets similar issue. I have a bank of 6 doubles on a 4mm radial circuit to reduce hum.
I use Fibaro dimmers. They are really easy to wire.
My speakers are powered so there are another 4 outlets for side and rears which have data points also.
Create a comms cupboard for incoming cable like Virgin and run all data to that. You can put your Nas and back up drive in there also.
You may want to consider a few floor boxes they are really useful in open plan areas.
We actually created mock furniture layouts with black floor protection during the build process.
I should add put some plastic conduits in 32mm with draw wire which will enable you to pull in anything that l you forgot. It’s cheap as chips to put in.
I hope you ar3 using u/floor heating. It’s brilliant and saves wall space. Also put a timed pumped return on the HWS so you get instant hot water at all taps.
Think about water softening if in an hard water area with separate drinking points.
For data use at least Cat 6 or 7 and do not under provide. I use 8 just for AV stuff. Do not rely on wi fi everywhere
Power sockets similar issue. I have a bank of 6 doubles on a 4mm radial circuit to reduce hum.
I use Fibaro dimmers. They are really easy to wire.
My speakers are powered so there are another 4 outlets for side and rears which have data points also.
Create a comms cupboard for incoming cable like Virgin and run all data to that. You can put your Nas and back up drive in there also.
You may want to consider a few floor boxes they are really useful in open plan areas.
We actually created mock furniture layouts with black floor protection during the build process.
I should add put some plastic conduits in 32mm with draw wire which will enable you to pull in anything that l you forgot. It’s cheap as chips to put in.
I hope you ar3 using u/floor heating. It’s brilliant and saves wall space. Also put a timed pumped return on the HWS so you get instant hot water at all taps.
Think about water softening if in an hard water area with separate drinking points.
Edited by Nickgnome on Tuesday 26th February 12:51
Edited by Nickgnome on Tuesday 26th February 12:57
silversurfer1 said:
Thanks for the suggestions !
I can do a lot of stuff but terminating the CAT cable into a network switch and setting it all up is beyond me im afraid hence wanting a pro for this.
The plumbing UFH and secondary return im all good with its what i do for a living
Cheers
SS
Get your sparky to pull the cables and leave decent tails. Get a specialist to terminate. You can do it yourself it’s not that difficult but I’m led to believe Cat 7 is much morecdifficult. I can do a lot of stuff but terminating the CAT cable into a network switch and setting it all up is beyond me im afraid hence wanting a pro for this.
The plumbing UFH and secondary return im all good with its what i do for a living
Cheers
SS
Use an unmanaged ‘dumb’ switch. They are just plug and play so no set up needed. NETGEAR do some good ones prosafe I think. I currently run a 16 port but daisy chain some smaller ones as well.
I saw you had a dedicated plant room so suspected you had some background in building services.
Edited by Nickgnome on Tuesday 26th February 17:35
Yes I'm from a gas and heating back ground. Ive built a few houses I'm just bit of a dinosaur when it comes to this tech stuff
This house is actually for me so yes we are having a plant room.
I was thinking of a rack of some sort in the upstairs store and run everything back to that
ss
silversurfer1 said:
Yes I'm from a gas and heating back ground. Ive built a few houses I'm just bit of a dinosaur when it comes to this tech stuff
This house is actually for me so yes we are having a plant room.
I was thinking of a rack of some sort in the upstairs store and run everything back to that
ss
A store room would be fine assuming it’s not heated and reasonably well vented. We have a flat roof so I ran some more ducts for satellite and tv aerial and possible PV. This house is actually for me so yes we are having a plant room.
I was thinking of a rack of some sort in the upstairs store and run everything back to that
ss
I put a few spare ducts all the way from the road into the house. This enables bt or virgin or whoever to run their cables into the house.
It also enables easy wiring for external lights and power.
The Virgin guys were really helpful and left a 20m tail for me to pull up to our comms cupboard on the first floor so no joints. Consequently I get in excess of 250Mbs most of the time.
Are you a kite or windsurfer btw?
Edited by Nickgnome on Tuesday 26th February 20:47
silversurfer1 said:
Anyone got any recommendations for a reasonable Audio Visual company ?
Im planning a new build and want some stuff doing not interested in full home automation but Sonos, surround sound in living room Tv distribution some cat6 and maybe some other ideas i hadn't though of.
Just had a budget cost from a local company and it was 2.5K for cables 1.5k to draw a schematic and 1k for assistance for first fix.
Maybe I'm out of touch but that just seems mental, I'm sure me and my electrician could sort it out but id rather give that area over to someone else and concentrate on other stuff
Cheers in advance
Based between swindon and cirencester
SS
I think that’s pretty mental too! Im planning a new build and want some stuff doing not interested in full home automation but Sonos, surround sound in living room Tv distribution some cat6 and maybe some other ideas i hadn't though of.
Just had a budget cost from a local company and it was 2.5K for cables 1.5k to draw a schematic and 1k for assistance for first fix.
Maybe I'm out of touch but that just seems mental, I'm sure me and my electrician could sort it out but id rather give that area over to someone else and concentrate on other stuff
Cheers in advance
Based between swindon and cirencester
SS
You clearly have a company there, that do not adapt their approach to suit the clients needs.
That’s ok to a point, but they should explain if that’s their approach.
If you, the builder and the electrician are all on hand and receptive, then things need not be complicated or so expensive.
I do think you need help from an AV professional, as there are too many possibilities to consider yourself.
If you don’t know what to do, you can’t ‘research on the internet’
It should initially go a little like this.....
Site meeting, possible product demonstration, kit list confirmation, agree timeline, fee to engage services, (possible hardware deposit if suitable) cable schedule provided to electrician on site, cables delivered, liaison during electrical 1st fix, cable check.
Based on your simple requirements / questions, I would estimate around £2000 should be enough, including the 1st fix cables.
I would expect that a retail based model would suit you best.
I would suggest you have a word with Sevenoaks in Bristol.
Also, whatever you do, don’t ask the electrician for AV advise.
I’ve never yet met an electrician with any more than a basic clue. The trades are just too far removed.
It’s not fair to expect them to know the ins and outs of all suitable hardware and supporting infrastructure.
Nickgnome said:
Get your sparky to pull the cables and leave decent tails. Get a specialist to terminate. You can do it yourself it’s not that difficult but I’m led to believe Cat 7 is much morecdifficult.
Yep i tried to use my leftover cat7 cable to make connectors and it's a bloody nightmare, worse than cat6 which i was midly succesfully at after a few attempts but cat7 is much thicker. Great for laying just not as good for trying to add rj45 connectors at the endEdited by Nickgnome on Tuesday 26th February 17:35
Hey,
I just finished my build and did a few of the things you're suggesting so here's some notes:
Surround sound - I supplied the cables for the builder (using Van Damme Speaker cable) and they put them in the walls, where I specified.
If you're using Sonos through the house you may want to 'extend' the usefullness of a Sonos connect by adding a S/P DIF (70 Ohm) Coax cable from the box in one room and porting it to a receiver - as an example, I have a Connect in my dining room and took a cable from this to the upstairs living room and it plugs into the receiver there on a digital input and gives the same Sonos facilities as I have in the dining room. (Obviously it won't give two different outputs).
I asked the electrician to put in the Ethernet cables at various points - I have around 20 around the house - some have specific use, others are redundant and they're all tied to a 24 way Netgear switch in the roof, which I plug the regular router into.
If you're using Sky, the Sky Q system only needs two satellite cable connections to the main box - any secondary box will connect via ethernet/wifi
Put at least two or three ethernet connections at each TV point (TV, Sky Box, Playstation etc)
If you're laying flooring then you may want power/ethernet in the floor - I have a couple of freestanding Sonos Play 5's as a pair and the power/network is in the floor so there are no trailing cables.
I just finished my build and did a few of the things you're suggesting so here's some notes:
Surround sound - I supplied the cables for the builder (using Van Damme Speaker cable) and they put them in the walls, where I specified.
If you're using Sonos through the house you may want to 'extend' the usefullness of a Sonos connect by adding a S/P DIF (70 Ohm) Coax cable from the box in one room and porting it to a receiver - as an example, I have a Connect in my dining room and took a cable from this to the upstairs living room and it plugs into the receiver there on a digital input and gives the same Sonos facilities as I have in the dining room. (Obviously it won't give two different outputs).
I asked the electrician to put in the Ethernet cables at various points - I have around 20 around the house - some have specific use, others are redundant and they're all tied to a 24 way Netgear switch in the roof, which I plug the regular router into.
If you're using Sky, the Sky Q system only needs two satellite cable connections to the main box - any secondary box will connect via ethernet/wifi
Put at least two or three ethernet connections at each TV point (TV, Sky Box, Playstation etc)
If you're laying flooring then you may want power/ethernet in the floor - I have a couple of freestanding Sonos Play 5's as a pair and the power/network is in the floor so there are no trailing cables.
silversurfer1 said:
Are you a kite or windsurfer btw?
Unfortunately not my brother used to own a comic shop
good shout on the ducts for future proofing.
Yes i was just a bit shocked at 4.5k for first fix for a pretty simple system.
Thanks for the help and ill keep you guys posted.
ss
Ducting only really works in short, straight distances. Unfortunately not my brother used to own a comic shop
good shout on the ducts for future proofing.
Yes i was just a bit shocked at 4.5k for first fix for a pretty simple system.
Thanks for the help and ill keep you guys posted.
ss
We installed it into 2 modern, subteranian houses for a developer and over long distances from plate to plant-room the twists and turns causes us a nightmare pulling cable in.
The weight, friction and twisting of the cables caused no end of snags and the strain we were having to put on the cable as it was pulled in was risky.
Short Runs, yes fine, long runs, would think long and hard before I did it again.
V.
VEX said:
Ducting only really works in short, straight distances.
We installed it into 2 modern, subteranian houses for a developer and over long distances from plate to plant-room the twists and turns causes us a nightmare pulling cable in.
The weight, friction and twisting of the cables caused no end of snags and the strain we were having to put on the cable as it was pulled in was risky.
Short Runs, yes fine, long runs, would think long and hard before I did it again.
V.
Off topic but have you used optical fibre cable yet? Just been watching a few videos recently about gigabit Ethernet and looks interesting. Probably overkill for most people though but would it go around corners more easily? We installed it into 2 modern, subteranian houses for a developer and over long distances from plate to plant-room the twists and turns causes us a nightmare pulling cable in.
The weight, friction and twisting of the cables caused no end of snags and the strain we were having to put on the cable as it was pulled in was risky.
Short Runs, yes fine, long runs, would think long and hard before I did it again.
V.
VEX said:
silversurfer1 said:
Are you a kite or windsurfer btw?
Unfortunately not my brother used to own a comic shop
good shout on the ducts for future proofing.
Yes i was just a bit shocked at 4.5k for first fix for a pretty simple system.
Thanks for the help and ill keep you guys posted.
ss
Ducting only really works in short, straight distances. Unfortunately not my brother used to own a comic shop
good shout on the ducts for future proofing.
Yes i was just a bit shocked at 4.5k for first fix for a pretty simple system.
Thanks for the help and ill keep you guys posted.
ss
We installed it into 2 modern, subteranian houses for a developer and over long distances from plate to plant-room the twists and turns causes us a nightmare pulling cable in.
The weight, friction and twisting of the cables caused no end of snags and the strain we were having to put on the cable as it was pulled in was risky.
Short Runs, yes fine, long runs, would think long and hard before I did it again.
V.
It’s important to secure the duct adequately along its length. All bends should be made easy rather than too sharp.
Use a good strong draw wire which takes the load not the cable you are pulling excepting where it attaches. Not more than 2/3 cables per conduit as a rule.
Nickgnome said:
We didn’t find that problem when pulling cables. My Virgin cable is one piece all the is an from the green box in the street well over 50m away. I do have a couple of access chambers in the front garden but also pulled in 10 m internally without any problem.
It’s important to secure the duct adequately along its length. All bends should be made easy rather than too sharp.
Use a good strong draw wire which takes the load not the cable you are pulling excepting where it attaches. Not more than 2/3 cables per conduit as a rule.
That’s the problem, our tv points need 4 or 5!It’s important to secure the duct adequately along its length. All bends should be made easy rather than too sharp.
Use a good strong draw wire which takes the load not the cable you are pulling excepting where it attaches. Not more than 2/3 cables per conduit as a rule.
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff