AV Amp upgrade to improve dialogue clarity?

[SDF1965]

Hi all

I have a DENON AVR-x2400H and have the system setup as 5.1, source is primarily Sky UHD

Speakers are ORB Audio units, duals for front left centre and right, single for the rears with a supporting Monitor Audio (MA) sub

Surround is excellent but I am finding dialogue not very clear, i have tried substituting centre speaker with an MA centre but no improvement

Is my limitation the amplifier or do i need a considerable step up in speakers?

Look forward to replies

[Mr E]

Turn the centre up?
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX2400H/NA/EN/SXQWSYksv...


How were the levels originally setup?

[SDF1965]

Hi, system has been setup using the mic and test tones, its not so much the sound level , more the clarity thati'm struggling with

[Zirconia]

Dialogue will have some meta data telling it the levels to play back. Tinker before spend.

I think Netflix had/has some test patterns with test tones? No longer a paid up member to check.

Edit. Point being it is using another source to check the amp.

Edited by Zirconia on Friday 17th July 10:45

[Mr E]

Hmm. I have (had) a 2200 and didn’t notice a problem. If you’ve change speakers I don’t know what to suggest?

[GravelBen]

Hard to really know without testing something different in the same room! I don't know those speakers or amp to comment on them specifically, but in general...

My first thought was trying a different centre speaker as that gave me a big improvement in dialogue clarity (I went from a Wharfedale Diamond 9CS to a Yamaha NS-444). But you've already tried a different centre.

My second thought - have you experimented with centre speaker position? For a long time I had mine down quite low, in an open cabinet below the tv (didn't fit anywhere else) and was never happy with the clarity. Eventually I improvised a stand to mount it above the tv, huge improvement.

Another possibility - any chance you've connected left and right the wrong way around on the centre so its out of phase with the other speakers?

If that amp has selectable speaker size option for each channel then I'd check that the centre is set to 'small', if it thinks the centre is large it might be trying to push too much bass through it and muddying up its sound.

Just looking up the Orb speakers, I'd check your crossover settings follow their recommendation here too: https://www.orbaudio.com/pages/support as that could also cause it to feed too much bass to tiny speakers and make them distort.

Edited by GravelBen on Friday 17th July 12:50

[triple5]

Interesting as I have a x3400H with the same issue, I've always put it down to my center speaker (Energy Take 1).

Overall I'm very disappointed with the amp, its not a patch on my previous Sony.

[SDF1965]

Gravelben, some good ideas thank you , I'll confirm polarity, as you say, phase maybe causing issue and can select speaker size so will see if that is the issue, re-positioning, although tricky is worth a try

[SDF1965]

Triple5, this Denon was a change from a Sony, change required to allow HDCP 2.2 format and I didn't have the patience to wait for a Sony 1080, like you I think the Sony was better, may have to try a Sony 1080 and see how that compares

[vetrof]

GravelBen said:

.....

My second thought - have you experimented with centre speaker position? For a long time I had mine down quite low, in an open cabinet below the tv (didn't fit anywhere else) and was never happy with the clarity. Eventually I improvised a stand to mount it above the tv, huge improvement.

My centre speaker is also in an open(front and back) cabinet/shelf below the TV and find that if one of the kids has moved it backwards, dialog quality is noticably worse. I try to have it as far forward as possible, even protruding somewhat.

[triple5]

SDF1965 said:

Triple5, this Denon was a change from a Sony, change required to allow HDCP 2.2 format and I didn't have the patience to wait for a Sony 1080, like you I think the Sony was better, may have to try a Sony 1080 and see how that compares

For some reason I’ve never gelled with the Denon, will have to take a look at the 1080.

[Red 5]

SDF1965 said:

Hi all

I have a DENON AVR-x2400H and have the system setup as 5.1, source is primarily Sky UHD

Speakers are ORB Audio units, duals for front left centre and right, single for the rears with a supporting Monitor Audio (MA) sub

Surround is excellent but I am finding dialogue not very clear, i have tried substituting centre speaker with an MA centre but no improvement

Is my limitation the amplifier or do i need a considerable step up in speakers?

Look forward to replies

This is not a problem you should be experiencing with that system at all.
I think we can sort it out though.

Please take a few pictures for me, of the system from where you sit, then a bit closer so I can see the centre speaker position properly.

What are the speaker sizes set to?
What are the x-over points set to, per speaker?
Where is the manual x-over dial set to on the back of the MA subwoofer please?

[justin220]

I'd also suggest turning up the centre speaker. I've got mine 'set up' by the mic but up the centre a few notches and it's ideal

[Zirconia]

With all theses idea's chipping in, has it been tested to only Sky? Or with other services and is the amp indicating it is in the correct mode for 5.1?

[GravelBen]

vetrof said:

GravelBen said:

.....

My second thought - have you experimented with centre speaker position? For a long time I had mine down quite low, in an open cabinet below the tv (didn't fit anywhere else) and was never happy with the clarity. Eventually I improvised a stand to mount it above the tv, huge improvement.

My centre speaker is also in an open(front and back) cabinet/shelf below the TV and find that if one of the kids has moved it backwards, dialog quality is noticably worse. I try to have it as far forward as possible, even protruding somewhat.

I found the same thing with forward/backwards, I think when it was further back some of the sound was bouncing off the inside of the cabinet and scattering instead of projecting up to the listener. Very muffled.

Above the TV is far better than any cabinet position for my setup though, its a fairly small lounge so I guess a steeper angle from cabinet up to ears than some rooms. Always worth experimenting to see what works best in a room.

[Mr E]

I agree with preferring the speaker above the screen, but I have a Kef 9c. It doesn’t really go on the wall.

Anyone experimented with any upward firing atmos things?

[heisthegaffer]

I've got a similar problem albeit a different make of CS and surrounds to my front L & L. My solution is to use a phantom setting I.E turn the CS off. Probably a last resort and hopefully a better solution will present itself.

[SDF1965]

All

Many thanks for the comments and advice

I have switched back to a pair of Orbs for the centre speaker
turned up the channel by a couple of db
manually changed the measured distance, for whatever reason the auto calibration had the centre 1m further away than left and right channels.
confirmed polarity for all speakers which is correct
Also , and as per another recommendation, confirmed all speakers are set as 'small' (they were) and that the crossover frequency is set as per Orb Audio recommendations

seems better...will keep tinkering and if I have a revelation i'll update on this page

[Tony Starks]

Have a watch of Joe'n'tell on YouTube https://youtu.be/IOExjOa9w6M

Also get an SPL meter and manually adjust the levels, I have a Marantz 7013, which basically runs the same calibration software and I had to bump up my Atmos speaker levels a few dB to get a decent atmos playback.

Then have a watch of Youthman, Joe n Tell & Home Theatre Gurus.

[Red 5]

SDF1965 said:

All

Many thanks for the comments and advice

I have switched back to a pair of Orbs for the centre speaker
turned up the channel by a couple of db
manually changed the measured distance, for whatever reason the auto calibration had the centre 1m further away than left and right channels.
confirmed polarity for all speakers which is correct
Also , and as per another recommendation, confirmed all speakers are set as 'small' (they were) and that the crossover frequency is set as per Orb Audio recommendations

seems better...will keep tinkering and if I have a revelation i'll update on this page

Quite a few mistakes there I can tell, without even seeing images. Some things can be tinkered with, but some can’t.
Either way, you need to start from a sound basis, which you’ve not. I’s like to help and am keen to help you improve the overall sound and dialogue clarity.

All advice is moot until we see the VITAL system front soundstage images.

Notional advice from other users, who are also making mistakes, or reading the cookie-cutter instructions will not get you the best results sadly.

Let’s see some images and let’s start again