Amplifier change from traditional to AV
Discussion
Just moved from a Nad 320bee to a Denon ARVX 3100x (needed a solution for multiple devices to a TV and was a good deal 2nd hand from a reputable store).
The sound when playing a CD is no where near as good as the Nad using the same speakers (Q Acoustic 3050) and the denon needs the volume turned to 50% to get the volume I'd get at 20% from the Nad unit.
I was warned that an AV amp would have compromises for music but is this normal?
The sound when playing a CD is no where near as good as the Nad using the same speakers (Q Acoustic 3050) and the denon needs the volume turned to 50% to get the volume I'd get at 20% from the Nad unit.
I was warned that an AV amp would have compromises for music but is this normal?
The volume setting varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Don’t worry about it.
I don’t know either amp, but AV amps tend to have a lot of noisy stuff crammed into a small space. Without spending a fortune, there’ll be many more compromises over a plain stereo amp. And oh boy do they lose money quickly!
Try to live with it for a few months, see how you feel.
I don’t know either amp, but AV amps tend to have a lot of noisy stuff crammed into a small space. Without spending a fortune, there’ll be many more compromises over a plain stereo amp. And oh boy do they lose money quickly!
Try to live with it for a few months, see how you feel.
Check the 'eq' settings as well. AV amps might try to default to weird sound profiles, or be trying to automagically turn stereo into 5.1 etc so it comes out all the speakers.
I've got a mid-range Pioneer AV amp and pressing the 'Stereo' button (so 2 channel) and switching off any eq gubbins makes a big difference when listening to just music. Of course I turn it all back on again for watching Netflix!
I've got a mid-range Pioneer AV amp and pressing the 'Stereo' button (so 2 channel) and switching off any eq gubbins makes a big difference when listening to just music. Of course I turn it all back on again for watching Netflix!
I ran an old Denon 3803 AVR for years and was never happy with it for music, but it was far more for movies - I used to run it in pure direct mode so it was only amplifing the CD signal.
You can use the NAD to power your left and right and use the AVR to power any other speakers - left and right pre-out from AVR to the NAD, and then you'd need to set all the speaker levels to correspond for a given volume input on both amps (if you're running more than 2.0 that is) Quite a few of the more recent stereo amps have dedicated home theatre inputs now so that it runs the stereo pair and volume is entirely controlled from the AVR.
You can use the NAD to power your left and right and use the AVR to power any other speakers - left and right pre-out from AVR to the NAD, and then you'd need to set all the speaker levels to correspond for a given volume input on both amps (if you're running more than 2.0 that is) Quite a few of the more recent stereo amps have dedicated home theatre inputs now so that it runs the stereo pair and volume is entirely controlled from the AVR.
There are AV amps out there (without the compromises necessary to get a multi-channel device sounding as good as a 2-channel amp) but i’ve yet to find anything for less than a couple of thousand £££.
A given PSU and banks of caps that work well with 2 channels don’t fair so well with the demands of 6,11 or 27(!!) channels. Then you’ve got all the switching devices, DACs, decoders, multiple digital and analogue connections etc - a budget for developing a fine sounding unit is quickly diluted when the number of channels and amplifiers increases to the numbers demanded nowadays.
Personally, I gave up after trying stuff from Denon, Marantz, Krell, EAD and lots of others and non matched a simple 2 channel pre/power amp for sound quality. The Krell/EAD combo got close but the cost?
I sold it all, went back to stereo and added an Arcam soundbar + BK sub - it takes car of the AV side of things leaving the big budget for what I love - music.
Having said all that, one particular multi-channel amp that surprised me (in a good way)was a fairly old Sony QS model (940QS IIRC) - cheap as chips but none of the later sound codecs or even HDMI but very convincing with AV AND music. I’ve still got it and slot it in when my ‘good’ stuff is being serviced.
As mentioned above, the reason you’re using more of the volume for a comparable loudness is simply because most AV volume controls are linear. Old skool stereo amps work differently with most giving their all by the mid-way point. It’s just something you need to get used to - decades of 1/4 volume being loud, 1/2 way blowing tweeters is replaced with 88 on the display.
A given PSU and banks of caps that work well with 2 channels don’t fair so well with the demands of 6,11 or 27(!!) channels. Then you’ve got all the switching devices, DACs, decoders, multiple digital and analogue connections etc - a budget for developing a fine sounding unit is quickly diluted when the number of channels and amplifiers increases to the numbers demanded nowadays.
Personally, I gave up after trying stuff from Denon, Marantz, Krell, EAD and lots of others and non matched a simple 2 channel pre/power amp for sound quality. The Krell/EAD combo got close but the cost?
I sold it all, went back to stereo and added an Arcam soundbar + BK sub - it takes car of the AV side of things leaving the big budget for what I love - music.
Having said all that, one particular multi-channel amp that surprised me (in a good way)was a fairly old Sony QS model (940QS IIRC) - cheap as chips but none of the later sound codecs or even HDMI but very convincing with AV AND music. I’ve still got it and slot it in when my ‘good’ stuff is being serviced.
As mentioned above, the reason you’re using more of the volume for a comparable loudness is simply because most AV volume controls are linear. Old skool stereo amps work differently with most giving their all by the mid-way point. It’s just something you need to get used to - decades of 1/4 volume being loud, 1/2 way blowing tweeters is replaced with 88 on the display.
A/V amps generally perform poorly in stereo mode (with a few exceptions).
Are you connecting the CD via a digital input, or analogue?
A lot of A/V receivers will digitise any analogue inputs (usually poorly) for processing within the amp.
Most of the time the "Direct" or "Pure direct" modes will bypass this processing.
Are you connecting the CD via a digital input, or analogue?
A lot of A/V receivers will digitise any analogue inputs (usually poorly) for processing within the amp.
Most of the time the "Direct" or "Pure direct" modes will bypass this processing.
For many years (over 15) I've had a Yamaha DCD800 AV amp. It delivers 5.1 Dolby and DTS by powering centre channel and 2 x rear speakers. Line level output to active sub, and line level output to front left and right speakers. The line level to left and right fronts is fed into a dedicated stereo amp (currently an ATC SIA2-150 driving Spendor S6E floorstanding loudspeakers) which also has other inputs from turntable pre-amp and an Eastern Electric tube dac from digital streaming source (ripped CDs and online).
In effect, this gives a dedicated stereo hifi setup with excellent and un-compromised hifi sound quality for 2 channel music, but also allows the use of the main hifi speakers as front left and right when watching films with 5.1 surround.
I also use the subwoofer (a REL Strata 3) with line level input from the AV amp, and it is linked to the 2 channel setup (and balanced with the Spendors) with high level input from the stereo amp speaker outputs.
To me this gives the best of both worlds - enabling the same speakers to be used with surround sound for films, which isn't that critical to have top quality hifi sound, whilst not compromising the very high quality stereo sound for listening to music.
I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
In effect, this gives a dedicated stereo hifi setup with excellent and un-compromised hifi sound quality for 2 channel music, but also allows the use of the main hifi speakers as front left and right when watching films with 5.1 surround.
I also use the subwoofer (a REL Strata 3) with line level input from the AV amp, and it is linked to the 2 channel setup (and balanced with the Spendors) with high level input from the stereo amp speaker outputs.
To me this gives the best of both worlds - enabling the same speakers to be used with surround sound for films, which isn't that critical to have top quality hifi sound, whilst not compromising the very high quality stereo sound for listening to music.
I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
Edited by C n C on Monday 5th October 00:50
C n C said:
<snip>
I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
As per my comment above - a lot (most?) A/V receivers now automatically digitise even the line level inputs.I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
Edited by C n C on Monday 5th October 00:50
So you could plug your valve DAC or other valve source into the line input, only to have it digitised (often by a relatively poor A/D converter).
Some of the better amps have a source direct (or similarly named) button to bypass these A/D converters but not all.
TonyRPH said:
C n C said:
<snip>
I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
As per my comment above - a lot (most?) A/V receivers now automatically digitise even the line level inputs.I understand that several modern AV amps also have line level output, so maybe something to consider?
Edited by C n C on Monday 5th October 00:50
So you could plug your valve DAC or other valve source into the line input, only to have it digitised (often by a relatively poor A/D converter).
Some of the better amps have a source direct (or similarly named) button to bypass these A/D converters but not all.
I'm not suggesting that the 2 channel signal from the high quality stereo DAC, CD player and/or turntable is fed into the AV receiver, or goes anywhere near it.
If the OP still has the NAD stereo amp that he was happy with for listening to CDs, then if he takes a line level OUTPUT from the Denon AV receiver (for the front left and right channels) and puts it into one of the line level inputs on the NAD and uses the NAD to drive the main front left and right speakers, he can also route all his audio sources into the NAD as well. In this way, when listening to music, it's the same setup he was happy with, not involving the AV receiver at all. In the diagram below, the grey area represents what is in play when listening to music.
When watching films, the AV receiver drives the rears, centre and sub with the NAD driving the front left and right.
Hopefully the diagram below may make it a bit clearer.
AV_setup.001 by conradsphotos, on FlickrC n C said:
I think you may have misunderstood my post (or I've not explained it clearly enough). Basically it's similar to what Stevoknevo suggested above.
I'm not suggesting that the 2 channel signal from the high quality stereo DAC, CD player and/or turntable is fed into the AV receiver, or goes anywhere near it.
If the OP still has the NAD stereo amp that he was happy with for listening to CDs, then if he takes a line level OUTPUT from the Denon AV receiver (for the front left and right channels) and puts it into one of the line level inputs on the NAD and uses the NAD to drive the main front left and right speakers, he can also route all his audio sources into the NAD as well. In this way, when listening to music, it's the same setup he was happy with, not involving the AV receiver at all. In the diagram below, the grey area represents what is in play when listening to music.
When watching films, the AV receiver drives the rears, centre and sub with the NAD driving the front left and right.
Hopefully the diagram below may make it a bit clearer.
AV_setup.001 by conradsphotos, on Flickr
That's very clever but the Mrs and kids would never figure out switching across devices. They just want to change source and have it work.I'm not suggesting that the 2 channel signal from the high quality stereo DAC, CD player and/or turntable is fed into the AV receiver, or goes anywhere near it.
If the OP still has the NAD stereo amp that he was happy with for listening to CDs, then if he takes a line level OUTPUT from the Denon AV receiver (for the front left and right channels) and puts it into one of the line level inputs on the NAD and uses the NAD to drive the main front left and right speakers, he can also route all his audio sources into the NAD as well. In this way, when listening to music, it's the same setup he was happy with, not involving the AV receiver at all. In the diagram below, the grey area represents what is in play when listening to music.
When watching films, the AV receiver drives the rears, centre and sub with the NAD driving the front left and right.
Hopefully the diagram below may make it a bit clearer.
AV_setup.001 by conradsphotos, on FlickrThanks for the replies and c n c i actually got to that idea albeit with a speaker switch box.
After some pondering and discussing with the wife (I know!) I returned the AV amp and re deployed my old Yamaha ysp-1400. For the budget I was working to it seemed the simple option and the £350 saved will now most probably go toward fixing an oil pressure sensor fault on the car that cropped up as I drove back from the post office!
After some pondering and discussing with the wife (I know!) I returned the AV amp and re deployed my old Yamaha ysp-1400. For the budget I was working to it seemed the simple option and the £350 saved will now most probably go toward fixing an oil pressure sensor fault on the car that cropped up as I drove back from the post office!
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