Finding Jack Charlton (BBC)
Discussion
I have zero interest in football but still thoroughly enjoyed the programme.
It was sad to see such an intelligent and energetic man reduced to the point where he needed help around the clock but his and his wife’s bloody mindedness kept him going as long as possible. It’s a shame that he and Bobby never really got on either and no one seemed to understand why it was.
It was sad to see such an intelligent and energetic man reduced to the point where he needed help around the clock but his and his wife’s bloody mindedness kept him going as long as possible. It’s a shame that he and Bobby never really got on either and no one seemed to understand why it was.
Will pick it up on i-player.
My father used to act as officer in charge of the policing at Middlesbrough (Ayresome Park) and used to tell him off for swearing at the fans.
Had some potential clients at York Races one day in the early 90s and lost one (from Dublin), found him chatting to the said Mr Charlton in the bar (he was the manager of Ireland at the time).
My father used to act as officer in charge of the policing at Middlesbrough (Ayresome Park) and used to tell him off for swearing at the fans.
Had some potential clients at York Races one day in the early 90s and lost one (from Dublin), found him chatting to the said Mr Charlton in the bar (he was the manager of Ireland at the time).
I watched this this evening. I was lucky enough to have met Jack a few times when I was a child. He had a house in a village a bit further up the dale in which I grew up. He was a really kind, down to earth man.
This documentary is genuinely amazing. The relationship he had with Paul McGrath and their obvious importance to one another.
It actually made me cry and I don't normally do that.
This documentary is genuinely amazing. The relationship he had with Paul McGrath and their obvious importance to one another.
It actually made me cry and I don't normally do that.
Blue62 said:
What a life he had, you get the strong sense that he had a far better time than Bobby who I ended up seeing as a pretty tragic figure.
I'm not sure that's true. Bobby was (is) a long time director at Man Utd, happily married with kids and grandkids, nothing to suggest he didn't have a good time. They were just very different people. Jack was very true to his roots, married a local working class girl etc. Bobby was a superstar of his age, one of the world's best players, would have earned far more than Jack, married a middle class girl and moved up into those circles. Bobby was quiet, modest, shy almost. Jack was loud and outgoing.
It must've been tough for Jack, being in the shadow of his younger brother. Jack once said as much..."Bobby was one of the best players in the world and I couldn't play at all. I was ok at stopping other people from playing."
I suspect (although I don't know) Jack must've resented Bobby as a player, with all his natural talent and glittering career, whereas Jack has to battle his way in football with a pretty mediocre skill set. Jack played a fair part of his football in Division 2. And then Bobby, who had always been the star, suddenly found that whilst he failed at management, Jack suddenly became the star, which must've been tough on him.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 31st March 10:07
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I'm not sure that's true. Bobby was (is) a long time director at Man Utd, happily married with kids and grandkids, nothing to suggest he didn't have a good time.
They were just very different people. Jack was very true to his roots, married a local working class girl etc. Bobby was a superstar of his age, one of the world's best players, would have earned far more than Jack, married a middle class girl and moved up into those circles. Bobby was quiet, modest, shy almost. Jack was loud and outgoing.
It must've been tough for Jack, being in the shadow of his younger brother. Jack once said as much..."Bobby was one of the best players in the world and I couldn't play at all. I was ok at stopping other people from playing."
I suspect (although I don't know) Jack must've resented Bobby as a player, with all his natural talent and glittering career, whereas Jack has to battle his way in football with a pretty mediocre skill set. Jack played a fair part of his football in Division 2. And then Bobby, who had always been the star, suddenly found that whilst he failed at management, Jack suddenly became the star, which must've been tough on him.
Jack can't have been that bad considering he played for England 35 times and won the world cup. I don't know if Jack would have resented Bobby's life really, his interests were in country pursuits and he was able to do as much of that as he could have wanted. It's a shame that they didn't get on. I hope my sons have an infinitely better relationship as adults than Bobby and Jack. They were just very different people. Jack was very true to his roots, married a local working class girl etc. Bobby was a superstar of his age, one of the world's best players, would have earned far more than Jack, married a middle class girl and moved up into those circles. Bobby was quiet, modest, shy almost. Jack was loud and outgoing.
It must've been tough for Jack, being in the shadow of his younger brother. Jack once said as much..."Bobby was one of the best players in the world and I couldn't play at all. I was ok at stopping other people from playing."
I suspect (although I don't know) Jack must've resented Bobby as a player, with all his natural talent and glittering career, whereas Jack has to battle his way in football with a pretty mediocre skill set. Jack played a fair part of his football in Division 2. And then Bobby, who had always been the star, suddenly found that whilst he failed at management, Jack suddenly became the star, which must've been tough on him.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 31st March 10:07
Watched this last night.
There was a deep rift in the family, (When you read both their autobiographies) stemming from the fact that Bobby and Jack's mother didn't get on with Norma, Bobby's wife, so Bobby shunned the family and stuck up for his wife, and big Jack was caught up in the middle of it.
Bobby never recovered fully from the Munich air crash in 1958 when many of his team mates perished, (And who could blame him), he has always been shy and withdrawn, it basically cast a large shadow in his life even to this day.
My games teacher at school for a brief time in the mid sixties was busby babe survivor Dennis Viollet, and he said Bobby didn't like talking about it.
Both brothers were great great players.
There was a deep rift in the family, (When you read both their autobiographies) stemming from the fact that Bobby and Jack's mother didn't get on with Norma, Bobby's wife, so Bobby shunned the family and stuck up for his wife, and big Jack was caught up in the middle of it.
Bobby never recovered fully from the Munich air crash in 1958 when many of his team mates perished, (And who could blame him), he has always been shy and withdrawn, it basically cast a large shadow in his life even to this day.
My games teacher at school for a brief time in the mid sixties was busby babe survivor Dennis Viollet, and he said Bobby didn't like talking about it.
Both brothers were great great players.
Wacky Racer said:
Watched this last night.
There was a deep rift in the family, (When you read both their autobiographies) stemming from the fact that Bobby and Jack's mother didn't get on with Norma, Bobby's wife, so Bobby shunned the family and stuck up for his wife, and big Jack was caught up in the middle of it.
Bobby never recovered fully from the Munich air crash in 1958 when many of his team mates perished, (And who could blame him), he has always been shy and withdrawn, it basically cast a large shadow in his life even to this day.
My games teacher at school for a brief time in the mid sixties was busby babe survivor Dennis Viollet, and he said Bobby didn't like talking about it.
Both brothers were great great players.
I hadn’t considered the effect of Munich on Bobby, but as Twig said they were very different people which came through very clearly in the excellent programme. On a car related note, was Jack driving a Zodiac/Zephyr mk4 estate? There was a deep rift in the family, (When you read both their autobiographies) stemming from the fact that Bobby and Jack's mother didn't get on with Norma, Bobby's wife, so Bobby shunned the family and stuck up for his wife, and big Jack was caught up in the middle of it.
Bobby never recovered fully from the Munich air crash in 1958 when many of his team mates perished, (And who could blame him), he has always been shy and withdrawn, it basically cast a large shadow in his life even to this day.
My games teacher at school for a brief time in the mid sixties was busby babe survivor Dennis Viollet, and he said Bobby didn't like talking about it.
Both brothers were great great players.
PeteinSQ said:
Jack can't have been that bad considering he played for England 35 times and won the world cup.
He wasn't that bad. He was very good at doing what he did, which was stopping the opposition from playing. Hoof the ball as far from danger as you can, or it possible, get it and give it to someone who could do something useful with it. Someone who could actually play, like Bobby Moore. Wacky Racer says both brothers were great players. No they weren't. Alf Ramsey was very good at picking players who weren't always the best in their position, but were the best fit for the team. That was Jack. I don't think he made his England debut until he was about 28. Bobby was a regular for England as a teenager.
Jackie would have p1ssed himself laughing if you told him he was a great player.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 31st March 11:19
TwigtheWonderkid said:
He wasn't that bad. He was very good at doing what he did, which was stopping the opposition from playing. Hoof the ball as far from danger as you can, or it possible, get it and give it to someone who could do something useful with it. Someone who could actually play, like Bobby Moore.
Wacky Racer says both brothers were great players. No they weren't. Alf Ramsey was very good at picking players who weren't always the best in their position, but were the best fit for the team. That was Jack. I don't think he made his England debut until he was about 28. Bobby was a regular for England as a teenager.
Jackie would have p1ssed himself laughing if you told him he was a great player.
He wasn't great player like Messi, Aquero, Kane etc, but he was very good at what he was supposed to do, maybe great is a bit over the top, but very few players liked playing against him.Wacky Racer says both brothers were great players. No they weren't. Alf Ramsey was very good at picking players who weren't always the best in their position, but were the best fit for the team. That was Jack. I don't think he made his England debut until he was about 28. Bobby was a regular for England as a teenager.
Jackie would have p1ssed himself laughing if you told him he was a great player.
I watched Leeds play home and away over sixty times between 1968 and 1972, they were a great (if slightly dirty) team, but no worse than Chelsea with "Chopper" Harris etc.
Wacky Racer said:
He wasn't great player like Messi, Aquero, Kane etc, but he was very good at what he was supposed to do, maybe great is a bit over the top, but very few players liked playing against him.
That's a fairer assessment. Wacky Racer said:
I watched Leeds play home and away over sixty times between 1968 and 1972, they were a great (if slightly dirty) team, but no worse than Chelsea with "Chopper" Harris etc.
Chopper was no angel, and every team back then had its hard man, but Leeds had 10 of them, plus Eddie Gray. They were miles worse that everyone else. You had some real thugs, Bremner, Hunter, Reeny, Charlton, Lorimer, Cooper. Good players but the rules meant very little to them. And then there was Johnny Giles, who was just a f
king horrible bd. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Chopper was no angel, and every team back then had its hard man, but Leeds had 10 of them, plus Eddie Gray. They were miles worse that everyone else. You had some real thugs, Bremner, Hunter, Reeny, Charlton, Lorimer, Cooper. Good players but the rules meant very little to them. And then there was Johnny Giles, who was just a fking horrible bd. I wouldn't call Reaney a dirty player.....I actually know him quite well, nor Lorimer , Gray, Madeley, Jones or Cooper.
In order of "dirtyness" I would say:-
Giles (Sly)
Bremner
Bite 'yer legs Hunter
Charlton (J)
Clarke (A)
Not forgetting of course Gary Sprake...
Wacky Racer said:
Not forgetting of course Gary Sprake...
Gary Sprake, Chelsea's best player in the 1970 Cup final 2-2 draw. Used to dive in instalments, 20% down now, the rest spread over the next 10 seconds.
Gray was a proper player. But as for the rest.....
It wasn't only the non stop fouling. Leeds invented the synchronised ridiculous appeal. One Leeds player would shoot wide, and the other 10 would appeal for the corner, and usually get it
For a while the late Trevor Cherry was a client of mine, he had some tales to tell. He would finish training black and blue, hacked to death by his own teammates. It was his header that Jim Montgomery saved before Lorimer's follow up was tipped onto the bar.
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