Adam Curtis - The Power of Nightmares

[durbster]

I remember seeing this when it first aired back in 2005 and it probably changed my life. It completely changed how I saw the world and how I consumed information.

It's on the iPlayer at the moment and I would really recommend it. Don't be put off by the date. With the Taliban taking Afghanistan back and the use of fear to radicalise people through social-media, the ideas in it are as relevant as ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p088s5k4/th...

[g3org3y]

Just watched the first episode

If you're interested in the War on Terror (and the associated politics), the Conflicted podcast is fascinating (presented by a former jihadist turned British double agent inside Al Qaeda).

https://messageheard.com/podcasts/conflicted

[andy_s]

Well worth a watch. Bitter Lake is perhaps more pertinent to Afghanistan and Hypernormalisation was a good but more generalised view of the arc of history. There is valid criticism that he joins dots in a certain way without looking at some of the other influences, but you'll certainly learn more about the synthetics of society than you will from reading the newspapers...

[ApexCult]

Mr Curtis' HyperNormalisation is well worth a watch too

[g3org3y]

Finished off all three. Wow, just wow.

Really eye opening. I wonder how much of this mentality has shaped our response to Covid.

Thanks for the other recommendations chaps, will check them out.

[Eric Mc]

He makes interesting documentaries but I think he tries to join to many dots and seems to not understand that randomness is a part of reality too.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Eric Mc said:

He makes interesting documentaries but I think he tries to join to many dots and seems to not understand that randomness is a part of reality too.

That about sums up my thinking on him too-we’re naturally always looking for answers, it’s part of the human condition and the same reason why conspiracy theories appeal to so many.

[Lucas Ayde]

durbster said:

I remember seeing this when it first aired back in 2005 and it probably changed my life. It completely changed how I saw the world and how I consumed information.

It's on the iPlayer at the moment and I would really recommend it. Don't be put off by the date. With the Taliban taking Afghanistan back and the use of fear to radicalise people through social-media, the ideas in it are as relevant as ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p088s5k4/th...

I think it's probably his best and most accessible work - well worth a watch.

Very eye opening if you haven't thought much about what is going on behind the scenes.

[g3org3y]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Eric Mc said:

He makes interesting documentaries but I think he tries to join to many dots and seems to not understand that randomness is a part of reality too.

That about sums up my thinking on him too-we’re naturally always looking for answers, it’s part of the human condition and the same reason why conspiracy theories appeal to so many.

I mentioned the Conflicted podcast with Aimen Dean (ex-Al Qaeda jihadi turned MI6 spy) which I've been listening to on my work commute. Also just started his book. Trying to cross ref with the stuff discussed in the Adam Curtis trilogy, so far seems quite accurate (lots of agreement re Neocons vs Jihadis). Not sure about the Al Qaeda situation, Curtis seems to play this down as a US 'invention' come about after US interrogations and a need for an organisation to pin it so. Need to hear more from Aimen (+ his book) to fully understand Bin Laden's role in this. Also AC plays down the global spread and the genuine threat. Are his claims re terrorist prosecutions (i.e. minimal and often on spurious evidence) accurate?

Anyway, lots of food for thought. The situation is definitely a LOT more complex than simply 'goodies' vs 'badies'.

[Prawo Jazdy]

This thread provoked me to rewatch this. I then had a bit of an Adam Curtis/Afghanistan binge, rewatching Bitter Lake and watching The Great Game by Rory Stewart. I feel like Adam Curtis needs references or citations to allow you to follow up what you're being told, but his programmes are certainly eye-opening. Can't Get You Out Of My Head felt like it had been created during an editing strike, but was still revealing. Sometimes it is a bit of a horror film, realising the history of your own country, and how "you" must be viewed by other nations and cultures who may be taught about that history or have longer memories.

This interview with AC was really interesting as well. It explained a bit more about his own viewpoints on the subjects he covers.

With TPON, the problem is that you could start viewing everything you don't have first hand experience of, as an invented nightmare. The pandemic, climate change, Salisbury poisonings, human rights abuses and genocide; which are real, and which are a case of "whoever has the darkest nightmare gets control"? I'm not saying any of those are fabrications by the way, but you can see that the effect of simple narratives to justify a result can lead to people doubting everything they're told which generates fear.

The other thing I found fascinating on rewatching TPON, was the parallel between Qutb and the religious right. Both saw materialism and consumerism as corrosive, and religion (or, more generically, "simple stories") as a solution. The idea that they both may have had the same starting thought process, but that the eventual result was two opposing ideologies, is astonishing.

Edited by Prawo Jazdy on Friday 27th August 10:42

[durbster]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Eric Mc said:

He makes interesting documentaries but I think he tries to join to many dots and seems to not understand that randomness is a part of reality too.

That about sums up my thinking on him too-we’re naturally always looking for answers, it’s part of the human condition and the same reason why conspiracy theories appeal to so many.

That's interesting because I take the opposite from his stuff.

One of the main themes I get is that it's a mistake to think that everything that happens is planned because most major events are the result of chains of separate incidents randomly coming together.

In fact, one of the episodes of All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace was about that very thing. Scientists were trying to create a model of an eco-system and failed because this idea we have of balanced eco-systems is actually nonsense, and nature is chaotic and unordered.

[durbster]

Prawo Jazdy said:

This interview with AC was really interesting as well. It explained a bit more about his own viewpoints on the subjects he covers.

Thanks. Will have a listen to that.

Prawo Jazdy said:

The other thing I found fascinating on rewatching TPON, was the parallel between Qutb and the religious right. Both saw materialism and consumerism as corrosive, and religion (or, more generically, "simple stories") as a solution. The idea that they both may have had the same starting thought process, but that the eventual result was two opposing ideologies, is astonishing.

Maybe that gives weight to the horseshoe theory, where the line between the far-left and far-right is not straight, and in fact bends so much that the extremes come back together.

[g3org3y]

Haven't had the chance to watch Bitter Lake or Hypernormalisation. Maybe this weekend.

I'd really recommend anyone with an interest in the 'War on Terror' to listen to the podcast I've mentioned above. Season 3 is coming out soon but apparently they are imminently releasing a special episode on the current situation in Afghanistan.

Prawo Jazdy said:

The other thing I found fascinating on rewatching TPON, was the parallel between Qutb and the religious right. Both saw materialism and consumerism as corrosive, and religion (or, more generically, "simple stories") as a solution. The idea that they both may have had the same starting thought process, but that the eventual result was two opposing ideologies, is astonishing.

Yep, the author of the book I mentioned does discuss Qutb and his teachings. Is incredible how the ideas took hold and flourished.

Will check out theinterview, thanks.

durbster said:

Prawo Jazdy said:

This interview with AC was really interesting as well. It explained a bit more about his own viewpoints on the subjects he covers.

Thanks. Will have a listen to that.

Prawo Jazdy said:

The other thing I found fascinating on rewatching TPON, was the parallel between Qutb and the religious right. Both saw materialism and consumerism as corrosive, and religion (or, more generically, "simple stories") as a solution. The idea that they both may have had the same starting thought process, but that the eventual result was two opposing ideologies, is astonishing.

Maybe that gives weight to the horseshoe theory, where the line between the far-left and far-right is not straight, and in fact bends so much that the extremes come back together.

Definitely an interesting point. I think it comes down to the unswerving belief that one is correct and consequently morally right to do any action to uphold these values.