Discussion
I started watching this through again. First time was in the early 00s (pretty much as they came out), and then again at some point between then and now, and now I'm back to season 3. What strikes me is firstly, how light, and tame it seems, especially after House of Cards, or even The Thick of It. There is very little downright nastiness to it, and it seems far to gentlemanly to be an accurate portrayal of politics today. Secondly, considering the show portrays the progressive left (as it was at the turn of the millennium), just how casually sexist and racist it is - or perhaps how sensitive we are these days to these things.
For example, when President Bartlett is asked whether his problem with Charlie (his black Personal Aide) seeing his daughter was a race thing, he was reassured, 'it's ok if it is'. I feel writing something like that today would be seen as very contentious and certainly not the way one would portray a Democratic POTUS. There are also a lot of references to the physical attributes, rather than professional abilities of many of the female characters.
I'm not what you would call particularly progressive, but I do find it surprising how quickly societal norms change. It's not like watching an episode of Till Death Us Do Part, but it does seem to have aged a lot in that regard. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it but it seems strange to think that what was the Hollywood ideal of a fantasy Liberal White House would risk being cancelled today.
TL;DR Society moves on.
For example, when President Bartlett is asked whether his problem with Charlie (his black Personal Aide) seeing his daughter was a race thing, he was reassured, 'it's ok if it is'. I feel writing something like that today would be seen as very contentious and certainly not the way one would portray a Democratic POTUS. There are also a lot of references to the physical attributes, rather than professional abilities of many of the female characters.
I'm not what you would call particularly progressive, but I do find it surprising how quickly societal norms change. It's not like watching an episode of Till Death Us Do Part, but it does seem to have aged a lot in that regard. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it but it seems strange to think that what was the Hollywood ideal of a fantasy Liberal White House would risk being cancelled today.
TL;DR Society moves on.
This my favourite show of all time. I have watched it through many times and am currently doing so again.
I certainly notice the sexism a lot. There is some racism but then there are a few main characters who are not white, although only Charlie would be considered a main character.
On the sexism what I notice a lot is people referring to things being done "like a girl". Sam gets taken apart by Ainsley and Josh says come quick Sam's being beaten by a girl. Sam describes some writing as like it was written by a girl.
It's funny because of all its Liberal smugness it does have those problems as you describe.
I certainly notice the sexism a lot. There is some racism but then there are a few main characters who are not white, although only Charlie would be considered a main character.
On the sexism what I notice a lot is people referring to things being done "like a girl". Sam gets taken apart by Ainsley and Josh says come quick Sam's being beaten by a girl. Sam describes some writing as like it was written by a girl.
It's funny because of all its Liberal smugness it does have those problems as you describe.
I finally got round to watching the west wing last year and had an enjoyable few months with it.A shame it didn’t carry on with Santos but I think viewing figures had dwindled by then ,which is a shame.
I think it’s a snapshot of where society was at back then and it’ll be interesting looking back to now in twenty or so years with the same regard.
Firstly I hope I’ll still be around.
I think it’s a snapshot of where society was at back then and it’ll be interesting looking back to now in twenty or so years with the same regard.
Firstly I hope I’ll still be around.
Absolutely love TWW, it's actually the reason I started paying more attention to politics (both in the UK and the US). It's aged ok I think. There are definitely some modern sensibilities that wouldn't fly if it was made today but at the time it was ground breaking television. Certainly worth noting that it still carries a great following in the progressive left and although the show ended in 2006 the podcast only really wrapped up a couple of years back. It was so loved the redid the Heartsfield Landing episode as part of the get out and vote campaign in 2020. Also worth noting that the Obama administration credited TWW with some of its success as well.
I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
Scotter said:
I finally got round to watching the west wing last year and had an enjoyable few months with it.A shame it didn’t carry on with Santos but I think viewing figures had dwindled by then ,which is a shame.
I think it’s a snapshot of where society was at back then and it’ll be interesting looking back to now in twenty or so years with the same regard.
Firstly I hope I’ll still be around.
Actually they stopped because John Spencer died, it was actually supposed to be Vinick who won the election and the show was to carry on, but the writers felt that Santos losing the election and Leo was too much for him to continue and they decided to wrap up with a Santos win which I actually felt ruined it a little, Josh was nowhere near ready to be CoS IMHO.I think it’s a snapshot of where society was at back then and it’ll be interesting looking back to now in twenty or so years with the same regard.
Firstly I hope I’ll still be around.
I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
geeks said:
Actually they stopped because John Spencer died, it was actually supposed to be Vinick who won the election and the show was to carry on, but the writers felt that Santos losing the election and Leo was too much for him to continue and they decided to wrap up with a Santos win which I actually felt ruined it a little, Josh was nowhere near ready to be CoS IMHO.
I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
Thanks for that,didn’t know!I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
Also apologies for repetition of the word shame.I lose ten points.
Next to Frasier I think it’s the most enjoyable series I’ve watched.
Is there anything similar I could get my teeth into?
Scotter said:
geeks said:
Actually they stopped because John Spencer died, it was actually supposed to be Vinick who won the election and the show was to carry on, but the writers felt that Santos losing the election and Leo was too much for him to continue and they decided to wrap up with a Santos win which I actually felt ruined it a little, Josh was nowhere near ready to be CoS IMHO.
I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
Thanks for that,didn’t know!I'm a bit of a fan of the show in case it wasn't coming across
Also apologies for repetition of the word shame.I lose ten points.
Next to Frasier I think it’s the most enjoyable series I’ve watched.
Is there anything similar I could get my teeth into?
Have you watched The News Room? Sorkin again but very good.
Scotter said:
geeks said:
Ha I didnt even notice the repetition.
Have you watched The News Room? Sorkin again but very good.
Nice one cheers!Have you watched The News Room? Sorkin again but very good.
Never heard of it,looks good so will delve into that at some point.
Scabutz said:
... His early stuff is worth a go as well... Sports Night
They actually overlap; Sorkin was writing that and TWW at the same time. Sabrina Lloyd was rather lovely - haven't seen her in anything for ages.The West Wing Weekly podcast is good; lots of interesting insider tidbits from cast and crew.
Scabutz said:
Newsroom is good, not as good as The West Wing but still good. Marks quite a change from the WW though as there is a lot of swearing. His early stuff is worth a go as well. Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip and Sports Night
Cheers again!Crikey he’s done some stuff,I don’t know why I’ve never looked his work up.Its nice to have a world open up like this,same with good music or a good book.
Studio 60 was after or late in TWW wasn’t it? Bradley went to it from TWW.
Watched it the first time round and then I did the whole run again last yr or so. I think the writing holds up superbly well and the sexism is much more interesting.
Superficially, 2023 would go “oooo it’s all sexist”, ie the Stewie faux “OMG, in 2023!” but as per all such things a deeper look is far more telling. They rush to watch Sam getting beaten by a girl because…it’s a boys club. Behaving like little boys. That’s why it’s written as it was. They are forced to contrast that with Ainsley who acts far more grown up than they are. Ainsleys arc of course incorporates the boys club, Sam, especially changing and firing the two explicitly sexism staffers. Then backed up by the AG. The whole pt of Josh, Sam and Toby acting childish is to contrast with Jed. Similarly Josh and Donna contrast with Jed and Mrs Lenihan. The use set moments like her death to give step changes to their behaviors.
TWW is far far better written than ppl give it credit for, even when revisiting it the best part of 20yrs later.
The Newsroom is a bit to try hard unfortunately. The first episode and THAT speech are completely stand out though.
Watched it the first time round and then I did the whole run again last yr or so. I think the writing holds up superbly well and the sexism is much more interesting.
Superficially, 2023 would go “oooo it’s all sexist”, ie the Stewie faux “OMG, in 2023!” but as per all such things a deeper look is far more telling. They rush to watch Sam getting beaten by a girl because…it’s a boys club. Behaving like little boys. That’s why it’s written as it was. They are forced to contrast that with Ainsley who acts far more grown up than they are. Ainsleys arc of course incorporates the boys club, Sam, especially changing and firing the two explicitly sexism staffers. Then backed up by the AG. The whole pt of Josh, Sam and Toby acting childish is to contrast with Jed. Similarly Josh and Donna contrast with Jed and Mrs Lenihan. The use set moments like her death to give step changes to their behaviors.
TWW is far far better written than ppl give it credit for, even when revisiting it the best part of 20yrs later.
The Newsroom is a bit to try hard unfortunately. The first episode and THAT speech are completely stand out though.
Scabutz said:
DeejRC said:
The Newsroom is a bit to try hard unfortunately. The first episode and THAT speech are completely stand out though.
The speeches are where Sorkin really stands out. The Newsroom one, "you can't handle the truth", the Latin rant in Two Cathedrals.Sorkin came up with the idea for the West Wing on the hoof. He was having lunch with a TV producer who wanted a pitch and Sorkin didn't have one but had some left over ideas from his film The American President (in which Martin Sheen was Chief of Staff).
It was originally supposed to focus more on Sam and Bartlett was going to have a much smaller part. Barletta was more popular and also Josh's popularity grew and got more stories and that's eventually why Sam left.
Sorkin appears on screen briefly in the final episode at Santos' inauguration.
They built a full size set which didn't quite match the actual West Wing but was close and that allowed them to do the long cuts and the " walk and talks".
I'm a West Wing nerd. If I ever go on Mastermind it will be my specialist subject.
It was originally supposed to focus more on Sam and Bartlett was going to have a much smaller part. Barletta was more popular and also Josh's popularity grew and got more stories and that's eventually why Sam left.
Sorkin appears on screen briefly in the final episode at Santos' inauguration.
They built a full size set which didn't quite match the actual West Wing but was close and that allowed them to do the long cuts and the " walk and talks".
I'm a West Wing nerd. If I ever go on Mastermind it will be my specialist subject.
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