Lucy Worsley Invesigates - BBC

[The Rotrex Kid]

Heads up, series 2 now on iPlayer.

Great history stuff from Lucy as usual!

[Chauffard]

Getting quite a whiff of female centric politics from recent Lucy shows.

Whether there was 80 000 or 800 prostitutes in Whitechapel in 1888 it doesn't alter the fact that women worse for drink and down on their luck ended up as Ripper victims and hardly the fault of newspapers.

[The Rotrex Kid]

Seems fair to point out that women were being classified as prostitues when they weren’t, no?

I wouldn’t call that ‘female centric politics’, just a correction of a previously well regarded claim as to how many actual prostitues were around at the time.

[PhilboSE]

Chauffard said:

Getting quite a whiff of female centric politics from recent Lucy shows.

I’ve been listening to her podcasts on female murderers and swindlers. It does say that it’s from a “feminist viewpoint”, but to listen to her (and particularly her guests), they are to be admired and any wrongdoing was because of men, or society, or life circumstances.

[Chauffard]

PhilboSE said:

I’ve been listening to her podcasts on female murderers and swindlers. It does say that it’s from a “feminist viewpoint”, but to listen to her (and particularly her guests), they are to be admired and any wrongdoing was because of men, or society, or life circumstances.

I don't think we should we can blame men or Society for the actions of Lizzy Borden and Madeline Smith, both were privileged females who killed to rid themselves of annoying people who stood in their way, it's paradoxical that men also found them not guilty, so swings and roundabouts.

[hondajack85]

For all we know she is talking as much bks as would be if Danny Dyer was doing the show. But its all about the delivery with bbc presenting.

[milesgiles]

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

[lancslad58]

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

You've obviously not done much reading on the subject..

https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/generalnews/a...

"Today, when people take Jack the Ripper tours through the East End of London they are, in fact, following in the footsteps of long ago, middle-class Victorian citizens to whom the poverty, degradation and criminality of the East End proved an irresistible draw."

Men in top hats sitting on a horse drawn omnibus
A Typical Horse Dtawn Omnibus
In the 1880’s crowds of fashionable Londoners (not to mention visitors to London) left the respectable confines of their middle and upper class surroundings to clamber aboard omnibuses and be taken a few short miles from the centre of London to enjoy midnight tours on which they could witness the sight of the poverty-stricken, lower class neighbourhoods and observe the inhabitants of “Slumland” in their natural habitat."

[milesgiles]

lancslad58 said:

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

You've obviously not done much reading on the subject..

https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/generalnews/a...

"Today, when people take Jack the Ripper tours through the East End of London they are, in fact, following in the footsteps of long ago, middle-class Victorian citizens to whom the poverty, degradation and criminality of the East End proved an irresistible draw."

Men in top hats sitting on a horse drawn omnibus
A Typical Horse Dtawn Omnibus
In the 1880’s crowds of fashionable Londoners (not to mention visitors to London) left the respectable confines of their middle and upper class surroundings to clamber aboard omnibuses and be taken a few short miles from the centre of London to enjoy midnight tours on which they could witness the sight of the poverty-stricken, lower class neighbourhoods and observe the inhabitants of “Slumland” in their natural habitat."

That’s not quite the same as saying they were there because of the murders, which was her claim

[tangerine_sedge]

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

That's the point of series like this - they revisit the evidence, re-evaluate it and attempt a more rounded retelling of the history.

Currently the trend is to look at historical events through the eyes of marginalised witnesses, i.e. women and other races. In this particular case it's not only that these women were prostitutes, therefore they were responsible for their own murders, but also that they deserved it. This of course annoys the people who have only ever heard this history through the male-white viewpoint.

I guess you can remain ignorant if every bit of information that doesn't correlate to what you've previously heard causes you to stop watching/listening - it certainly tallies with your strong vocal viewpoints across other threads.

[Castrol for a knave]

tangerine_sedge said:

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

That's the point of series like this - they revisit the evidence, re-evaluate it and attempt a more rounded retelling of the history.

Currently the trend is to look at historical events through the eyes of marginalised witnesses, i.e. women and other races. In this particular case it's not only that these women were prostitutes, therefore they were responsible for their own murders, but also that they deserved it. This of course annoys the people who have only ever heard this history through the male-white viewpoint.

I guess you can remain ignorant if every bit of information that doesn't correlate to what you've previously heard causes you to stop watching/listening - it certainly tallies with your strong vocal viewpoints across other threads.

That was still the view during the Yorkshire Ripper. it conveniently forgets sex work is a transactional relationship and one half of that transaction has got away with little or no disapprobation for centuries.

Plus ca change....

It was telling that one of the post mortems showed that the victim had an empty stomach. If you've left after one beating too many or lost your marital home, with no skills and no social support, then the outlook is bleak. Another victim had been made pregnant and abandoned.

The well to do very much enjoyed a trip into the other peoples' misery back in the day. The asylums were pretty much a visitor attraction.

[lancslad58]

milesgiles said:

lancslad58 said:

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

You've obviously not done much reading on the subject..

https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/generalnews/a...

"Today, when people take Jack the Ripper tours through the East End of London they are, in fact, following in the footsteps of long ago, middle-class Victorian citizens to whom the poverty, degradation and criminality of the East End proved an irresistible draw."

Men in top hats sitting on a horse drawn omnibus
A Typical Horse Dtawn Omnibus
In the 1880’s crowds of fashionable Londoners (not to mention visitors to London) left the respectable confines of their middle and upper class surroundings to clamber aboard omnibuses and be taken a few short miles from the centre of London to enjoy midnight tours on which they could witness the sight of the poverty-stricken, lower class neighbourhoods and observe the inhabitants of “Slumland” in their natural habitat."

That’s not quite the same as saying they were there because of the murders, which was her claim

Fair enough but for you to say Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. does that mean any historical event you've never heard of before didn't happen ?

[Peterpetrole]

tangerine_sedge said:

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

That's the point of series like this - they revisit the evidence, re-evaluate it and attempt a more rounded retelling of the history.

Currently the trend is to look at historical events through the eyes of marginalised witnesses, i.e. women and other races. In this particular case it's not only that these women were prostitutes, therefore they were responsible for their own murders, but also that they deserved it. This of course annoys the people who have only ever heard this history through the male-white viewpoint.

I guess you can remain ignorant if every bit of information that doesn't correlate to what you've previously heard causes you to stop watching/listening - it certainly tallies with your strong vocal viewpoints across other threads.

Don't mind hearing from "the marginalised" but only if they are held to the same rigourous accountability as every white male historian (Gibbon), using primary sources.

Everything else is politics.

[Chauffard]

While it may have been the general view of many Londoners in 1888 that the victims put themselves in danger and were largely the architects of their own death, victorian misogyny in other words.
All of the Ripper books I have read since the 1970s were not of that view, every author was very sympathetic to the lot of working class women, and explained in detail why some women resorted to drink and some to prostitution, however many did quote the hugely innacurate 80000 number.

The Gunpowder Plot tonight.

[Lotobear]

I think a joint show with Lucy and starkey would make great viewing

[Paul Dishman]

Peterpetrole said:

tangerine_sedge said:

milesgiles said:

Just started the JtR

My god. She has to have the worst delivery of any presenter I’ve heard in years. It’s like the female Robert Peston

First thing she says is that tourists flocked to the east end because of the murders. Never heard that before. Sure it’s rubbish. Turning off

That's the point of series like this - they revisit the evidence, re-evaluate it and attempt a more rounded retelling of the history.

Currently the trend is to look at historical events through the eyes of marginalised witnesses, i.e. women and other races. In this particular case it's not only that these women were prostitutes, therefore they were responsible for their own murders, but also that they deserved it. This of course annoys the people who have only ever heard this history through the male-white viewpoint.

I guess you can remain ignorant if every bit of information that doesn't correlate to what you've previously heard causes you to stop watching/listening - it certainly tallies with your strong vocal viewpoints across other threads.

Don't mind hearing from "the marginalised" but only if they are held to the same rigourous accountability as every white male historian (Gibbon), using primary sources.

Everything else is politics.

Prof Rosalind Crone from the Open University works with Lucy on the programmes, so I don't think you need be concerned about any lack of rigour. (I encountered her teaching when taking my OU degree, she's excellent)

https://www.open.ac.uk/people/rhc78

[milesgiles]

Chauffard said:

While it may have been the general view of many Londoners in 1888 that the victims put themselves in danger and were largely the architects of their own death, victorian misogyny in other words.
All of the Ripper books I have read since the 1970s were not of that view, every author was very sympathetic to the lot of working class women, and explained in detail why some women resorted to drink and some to prostitution, however many did quote the hugely innacurate 80000 number.

The Gunpowder Plot tonight.

Exactly. I’ve read a huge amount on the subject, watched many documentaries, still look at the two main websites and have been on the tour. Still got to do the museum. But I’ve never heard anyone who wasn’t a Victorian intimate that any of them ‘deserved it’