Race and intelligence

[JoePublic]

There was a documentary on Channel 4 last night about the link (or lack of) between race and intelligence. Despite making lots of claims about going where other programs fear to tread I didn't really feel it conclusively proved anything either way. What it did do is highlight that, not surprisingly, a lot of the people who've done research into the idea have rather racist agendas. It didn't really seem to provide any contradicting evidence from less controversial studies though.

Personally I find it very hard to believe there isn't a link between genetic make-up and intelligence. I suspect it's very small compared to the academic advantages of living in a well educated work-orientated environment, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a genetic component too.

It seems to me that there's an aversion in modern society to admitting people are different. That is NOT to suggest that any of these differences make someone a better human being, they just have strengths in different areas. Take Europe, for example. Anyone here been to northern Germany? The average male height is well over 6ft I'd say, but in the UK it's something like 5'9. How about sport? At the risk of sounding controversial, some races seem to be fundamentally superior at athletics, such as the dominance of Kenyans and Ethiopians in men's long distance running.

So is it really incromprehensable that some people could possess genetically different problem solving abilities (or whatever else you define intelligence as) too?

I'm sure it pails in significance compared to schooling and upbringing - after all academics are a conspicuously mixed bunch - but I find the idea that genetics doesn't affect intelligence harder to believe than the idea it does. I'd happily see my European genes come bottom of the list if only people would accept there may be a difference.

[Asterix]

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

[Marf]

Is it purely racial/genetic differences, or is the environment a person is raised in(i.e. parental involvement in education, quality of available schools) more of a factor?

[JoePublic]

Asterix said:

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

I was about to say the same about Wales...

I suppose in sincerity that [in the UAE] is probably a case of attitude and road safety education.

It does beg the question of what intelligence actually is and how you measure it. They kept coming back to that last night to disprove some unfashionable findings in previous tests.

[Mr Gearchange]

Asterix said:

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

That's mainly a religious thing though surely - the concept of Insha'Allah?
Although there is a strong argument to suggest that anyone who believes in such nonsense is non too bright?

[jamoor]

Asterix said:

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

Are you sure some people aren't less educated than others?

Or simply don't give a fk as they believe in reincarnation.

[Hugo a Gogo]

surely the whole thing has no relevance, if they can't define races first

we're all mongrels, just dividing everyone purely on skin tone or curly hair or slanty eyes isn't very scientific

edit: there must surely be hundreds of races

no-one can say the average Ethiopian looks like the average Ghanaian for example, or the average Greek man looks like a Finn, and within each of those 'races' is massive variance in appearance, so why not in everything else, intelligence included?

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Tuesday 27th October 10:33

[JoePublic]

Marf said:

Is it purely racial/genetic differences, or is the environment a person is raised in(i.e. parental involvement in education, quality of available schools) more of a factor?

I'm sure it's more of a factor, yes. I'm not convinced there isn't a small genetic input though.

When people are given a chance to succeed, then intelligent professionals pop up from all walks of life. That doesn't mean that some aren't genetically better adapted to solving certain types of problems than others though.

Edited by JoePublic on Tuesday 27th October 10:32

[threesixty]

JoePublic said:

Personally I find it very hard to believe there isn't a link between genetic make-up and intelligence. I suspect it's very small compared to the academic advantages of living in a well educated work-orientated environment, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a genetic component too.

Im sure you're right.

And im sure it could be conclusively proved however I'd like to think that any serious scientist would have no interest in doing such a thing. Simpley because no good would come of it. Proving that a specific genetic group are prone to being more or less intelligent than another group will do absolutley nothing but fuel racism.

[Asterix]

jamoor said:

Asterix said:

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

Are you sure some people aren't less educated than others?

Or simply don't give a fk as they believe in reincarnation.

I've been here for 6 years and have always tried to give the benefit of doubt to lack of education, cultural and religious influences but there are instances that I honestly can't understand the reasoning, or lack of.

Maybe you're right - the fatalism that some religions follow maybe the reason but I still can't see it as the reason for some of the stuff.

[jamoor]

Asterix said:

jamoor said:

Asterix said:

Living in the UAE has led me to conclude that some races are dumber than others.

I can't believe that some of the things done out here, especially on the roads, are simply ignorance.

Are you sure some people aren't less educated than others?

Or simply don't give a fk as they believe in reincarnation.

I've been here for 6 years and have always tried to give the benefit of doubt to lack of education, cultural and religious influences but there are instances that I honestly can't understand the reasoning, or lack of.

Maybe you're right - the fatalism that some religions follow maybe the reason but I still can't see it as the reason for some of the stuff.

You should go to pakistan

At least they have a division to ensure the traffic stays on the correct side of the road, and they have roads for starters.

[HundredthIdiot]

Given that this is such a morally/politically driven issue, I think you need to

1. Decide on your definition of intelligence.
2. Prove genetic components of intelligence.
3. Show that these are correlated with "race".
4. Decide what you're going to do with the results.

Good luck with that.

Take a simpler issue - gender differences. AFAIK men and women tend tend to have different brain structures and mental capacities. So what? What are you going to do with that?

[Hugo a Gogo]

HundredthIdiot said:

Given that this is such a morally/politically driven issue, I think you need to

1. Decide on your definition of intelligence.
2. Prove genetic components of intelligence.
3. Show that these are correlated with "race".
4. Decide what you're going to do with the results.

Good luck with that.

Take a simpler issue - gender differences. AFAIK men and women tend tend to have different brain structures and mental capacities. So what? What are you going to do with that?

you missed 'Decide on your definition of race.'

Nolar Dog on here has argued how you can't define gender so easily, so how the hell are you going to define race?

[AJI]

I did watch some of that program and my line of thinking is that the link to intelligence is more to do with growing up conditions and the environment people live in terms of challenge and needing to use and develop brain power to gain an advantage over others or simply to live in a complex high-tech society.

The level of 'intelligence' in my view is nothing to do with the race but of more of the society in that part of the world.

Different societies in the world have a need to either be more intelligent to gain that type of jobs, or simply to fit in with soceity and everyday machines.


I would argue that a lot of uk chavs have less intelligence than the dumber race implications made in that program on C4.

Edited by AJI on Tuesday 27th October 10:39

[JCB123]

I'm white, as are all but one of my friends.

My best mate is black.

He is the only coloured person I know.

He is clever (academically) than me and all of my friends.

Therefore, 100% of the coloured people I know are more intelligent than 100% of the white people I know.

[Marf]

AJI said:

I would argue that a lot of uk chavs have less intelligence than the dumber race implications made that program on C4.

Agreed, and whats worse is that its most likely through choice, "intelligence is bear stupid innit".

[JoePublic]

threesixty said:

JoePublic said:

Personally I find it very hard to believe there isn't a link between genetic make-up and intelligence. I suspect it's very small compared to the academic advantages of living in a well educated work-orientated environment, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a genetic component too.

Im sure you're right.

And im sure it could be conclusively proved however I'd like to think that any serious scientist would have no interest in doing such a thing. Simpley because no good would come of it. Proving that a specific genetic group are prone to being more or less intelligent than another group will do absolutley nothing but fuel racism.

True. I think the results would be a negative thing if they actually came out in the real world.

It was just the style of the program that slightly amused me: 'We're going to boldly take on a question that no serious scientist has ever dared to ask ... then dodge it for the sake of decency'

Actually, what the program did hint at briefly was that IQ as we currently define it seems to be dependent on class more than anything else. That's potentially an even firier issue.

Edited by JoePublic on Tuesday 27th October 10:42

[Bill]

Evolution is the process where genetic changes that confer an advantage tend to persist. Intelligence (I'd have thought) is an advantage in any situation so people's ability to reason should be equal in all races.

JoePublic said:

At the risk of sounding controversial, some races seem to be fundamentally superior at athletics, such as the dominance of Kenyans and Ethiopians in men's long distance running.

You're right, but the people of East Africa are generally nomadic and have evolved in a plains environment where muscle power is less important than the ability to travel large distances quickly and efficiently. As a contrary example the people of West Africa have evolved in jungles where power and sprinting ability are more of an advantage. Similarly, plains elephants are larger than jungle elephants as size is a disadvantage in the jungle.

[HiRich]

JoePublic said:

[It was just the style of the program that slightly amused me: 'We're going to boldly take on a question that no serious scientist has ever dared to ask ... then dodge it for the sake of decency'

Actually, what the program did hint at briefly was that IQ as we currently define it seems to be dependent on class more than anything else. That's potentially an even firier issue.

I agree that the programme failed to actually tackle the issue in the way it promised, and it skimmed over fascinating elements. It would have been better as three hour-long pieces going into more depth on some of these elements:

• What is intelligence? Clearly it's more than IQ
• What research is there that genetics might affect intelligence potential?
• What are the effects of environment (e.g. nutrition), society (e.g. living in a bad neighbourhood), and family/class (instilling a work ethic and encouraging learning, down to not giving a crap about your child's education)?

The last issue seemed to offer the greatest scope for improvement. It was clear that there are particular factors that influence how far children achieve their potential - factors over which society can have an influence. Tailoring the system could help some kids greater exploit their potential, be it university or towards more practical learning (becoming a mechanic rather than an engineer, for example), strikes me as worthwhile.

The programme ended up as a bit of a damp squib.

[RB Will]

JoePublic said:

, some races seem to be fundamentally superior at athletics, such as the dominance of Kenyans and Ethiopians in men's long distance running.

I believe this is something to do with the way they are built. I think their calf muscles are positioned a bit further towards the knee making running less effort and therefore making it easier to run faster and further