Employment Tribunals Should Be Abolished
Discussion
According to Charles Gallagher, CEO of Abbey (housebuilders), who says that our labour laws need a shake-up and that people should be hired and fired at will. Gallagher complains that it is far too hard to dismiss employees. Some CG quotes in The Times article:
"A job should not be a protected tenancy"
Britain's labour market is "stagnant, fixed"
"Laws to protect workers are dysfunctional"
If responsibilities are eroded or more hours are demanded and an employee doesn't like it, they should get another job. He does wish to see discrimination remain unlawful in terms of dismissal but says that those who believe they have a case should pursue it through conventional Courts.
Overall his view is that to revive Britain's flagging economy, employment tribunals should be abolished and the labour market freed up. What a good idea.
"A job should not be a protected tenancy"
Britain's labour market is "stagnant, fixed"
"Laws to protect workers are dysfunctional"
If responsibilities are eroded or more hours are demanded and an employee doesn't like it, they should get another job. He does wish to see discrimination remain unlawful in terms of dismissal but says that those who believe they have a case should pursue it through conventional Courts.
Overall his view is that to revive Britain's flagging economy, employment tribunals should be abolished and the labour market freed up. What a good idea.
"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty, and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all which is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind."
The capitalism is thought by Marx as a process of continual change, in which the growth of markets dissolve all fixities in human life, and Marx admits that capitalism is progressive and non-reactionary
The capitalism is thought by Marx as a process of continual change, in which the growth of markets dissolve all fixities in human life, and Marx admits that capitalism is progressive and non-reactionary
Sticks. said:
turbobloke said:
He does wish to see discrimination remain unlawful in terms of dismissal but says that those who believe they have a case should pursue it through conventional Courts.
That'll work. Good job they're not expensive, or bordering on overwhelmed as it is or anything. 
Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 4th July 19:26
One of the most stupid things I have read in all of my born days!!!
There is a pool of staff that meets his needs. Yes, they are called contractors/temps. They have no loyalty to your company and crave none from you and can be hired at fired at will.
Surely, if he got his way everyone would just fire anyone they saw as a threat to them leaving only the deadwood and plodders. That's going to work well isn't it?
I also find it highly amusing that a housebuilder is suggesting this. What’s that thing that mortgage lenders expect to see when making a lending decision? Oh, yes. That'll be a stable job!
I suspect his real problem is he keeps hiring duff employees and then failing to spot that they are helpless in the first year where he can fire them at will!
Nothing but a bad case of foot in mouth disease!
There is a pool of staff that meets his needs. Yes, they are called contractors/temps. They have no loyalty to your company and crave none from you and can be hired at fired at will.
Surely, if he got his way everyone would just fire anyone they saw as a threat to them leaving only the deadwood and plodders. That's going to work well isn't it?
I also find it highly amusing that a housebuilder is suggesting this. What’s that thing that mortgage lenders expect to see when making a lending decision? Oh, yes. That'll be a stable job!
I suspect his real problem is he keeps hiring duff employees and then failing to spot that they are helpless in the first year where he can fire them at will!
Nothing but a bad case of foot in mouth disease!
Edited by gamefreaks on Monday 4th July 20:25
I bought, for my employer, the majority of the assets of a company. The FD lost over 60% of the value of the company on his watch and was made redundant when the company went into adminsitration. I bought the assets some months later. He now has the front to sue my employer under TUPE, saying his contract should be honoured because "the business is still going".
Un-be-f
king-lievable.
Un-be-f
king-lievable.turbobloke said:
General - make something too easy and it gets overwhelmed by chancers, polluting the ground for genuine claims.
Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
FWIW my point was that the magistrates courts system is already overburdened, and if he'd thought about it for more than a few seconds he'd have realised this. Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 4th July 19:26
Anyone who has had been abused by an employee using the IT 'process' knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that huge reform is necessary.
In my experience, IT admin is so bad it is not even funny and the way that the, so called, judges operate is even worse.
When your lawyer warns not to expect justice from the IT and that this part of the law is rather like the Wild West, it's time for a change.
When some freak of an employee can bring a claim that is defendable but will cost more to defend than to settle, as the claimant's lawyer has no doubt advised his legally aided client, change is well overdue.
I am sure that there are cases where the employer has acted unreasonably. but I would bet an awful lot that those cases are outweighed several times over by the basically fraudulent claims of parasitical employees who aren't prepared to take responsibility for their own lives.
In my experience, IT admin is so bad it is not even funny and the way that the, so called, judges operate is even worse.
When your lawyer warns not to expect justice from the IT and that this part of the law is rather like the Wild West, it's time for a change.
When some freak of an employee can bring a claim that is defendable but will cost more to defend than to settle, as the claimant's lawyer has no doubt advised his legally aided client, change is well overdue.
I am sure that there are cases where the employer has acted unreasonably. but I would bet an awful lot that those cases are outweighed several times over by the basically fraudulent claims of parasitical employees who aren't prepared to take responsibility for their own lives.
DSM2 said:
I am sure that there are cases where the employer has acted unreasonably. but I would bet an awful lot that those cases are outweighed several times over by the basically fraudulent claims of parasitical employees who aren't prepared to take responsibility for their own lives.
Perhaps the crux of it - who is the more abused, employer or employee? Sounds like he'd like it to be the employee to me (predictably).Sticks. said:
turbobloke said:
General - make something too easy and it gets overwhelmed by chancers, polluting the ground for genuine claims.
Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
FWIW my point was that the magistrates courts system is already overburdened, and if he'd thought about it for more than a few seconds he'd have realised this. Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 4th July 19:26
I imagine he has thought about it but who knows.
turbobloke said:
General - make something too easy and it gets overwhelmed by chancers, polluting the ground for genuine claims.
Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
Firms have the option to hire people on a temporary basis. Maybe, because housebuilders had such a good bull market for so long, they over-employed on the permanent staff, and now the costs of shedding them are high. Average payout for wrongful dismissal is £7974, and while the small claims procedure operates up to £5000 there is a procedure to assess a larger claim to see if it is suitable for the small claims track. Or just update the small claims limit to £10k, inflation etc.
Maximum u.d. payout is around £80k. As for descrimination, the sums can be higher iirc but no idea what the guy thinks should be done there e.g. on ceilings.
But to take your angle...as these are all such worthy cases they will inevitably be prioritised to keep society functioning properly, and all that. Or, a large number of try-ons will become put-offs.
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 4th July 19:26
A whole lot of rights don't start until 1 year into permanent employment, and the government is looking at revising that to 2 years. It's a lot less protective than most of the continental European systems, although still more fluffy than the US, where they have "termination at will" - self explanatory. I suppose it would focus the employee's mind somewhat.
I'd rather trust the courts to administer a system effectively and weed out the chancers, rather than build expensive deterrents against the rest. If you make it too hard to pursue a genuine grievance, you will see chancers in the form of unscrupulous employers (let's not deny there will be a few of those), knowing that it's harder for a potential claimant (especially a lowly paid one) to get their day in court.
From the sound of the Abbey guy's statement, I would suspect he's possibly fallen foul of employment law, which in most cases doesn't come about through unscrupulousness but just through being ignorant of it. And that is partly because it's so complicated, therefore expensive to deal with. This is a problem.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
OK with me.
You can't defend the indefensible.
As said, discrimination is one thing - chopping deadwood, feckless, and liabilities should be allowed and be absolute by the owner (payers of the above)
Yup.You can't defend the indefensible.
As said, discrimination is one thing - chopping deadwood, feckless, and liabilities should be allowed and be absolute by the owner (payers of the above)
I prefer the American system; having been on both sides of the fence I must add.
Economic efficiency should be paramount given the nation's financial situation.
How will this improve long term efficiency? If you work in a climate of fear, where you could be fired at will, are you likely to be loyal and go the extra mile, or are you more likely to be ass-covering and continually looking over your shoulder?
A public sector strike, such as the teachers would be more effective - teachers strike leaving parents to arrange child care of take the day off - knowing that some employers may sack workers due to having to take a short notice day off will improve the bargaining power of the striker.
If you want a flexible workforce hire only temps.
SD
A public sector strike, such as the teachers would be more effective - teachers strike leaving parents to arrange child care of take the day off - knowing that some employers may sack workers due to having to take a short notice day off will improve the bargaining power of the striker.
If you want a flexible workforce hire only temps.
SD
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