Is the North doomed?

[Kermit power]

According to research carried out by the Sutton Trust, students from London & the South are three times more likely than those in the North to get a place at Oxford or Cambridge.

The picture isn't much less pronounced in other leading universities.



The article suggests a number of reasons for this, with one of the key ones being that when Northern school kids do get the grades they need to get into a top uni, they tend to move to the South East for work after they graduate, so their kids become part of the next generation of Southerners.

This being the case, what it the future for the North? Obviously there's only so much population the South East can take, but what happens until that reaches breaking point?

Apologies if this is a repost. I did search for it, but couldn't see anything.

[V88Dicky]

So Northern kids don't follow Tony Bliar's mantra and go to University, and?

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

There's more to the UK than a small, crowded (with foreigners, mostly) corner of the Saaaarf East.

[tomw2000]

V88Dicky said:

So Northern kids don't follow Tony Bliar's mantra and go to University, and?

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

That's not gonna happen any time soon. (imo).

[Justayellowbadge]

We all get pet northerners?

[Kermit power]

V88Dicky said:

So Northern kids don't follow Tony Bliar's mantra and go to University, and?

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

I think there are lots of kids right across the country who should take that approach, and it needs to be coupled with an end to the daft view that a degree is needed to do any worthwhile job.

This study, however, is looking just at the top universities - the ones who produce the graduates that we actually do need.

In that environment, I would want to see anyone and everyone with the brains for it get there. However, unless you take the view that the population of the North in general is actually less intelligent than the population of the South, then this isn't happening.

ETA - Just before anyone from the North gets upset, I do not believe that the population of the South is generally more intelligent than that of the North.

[thinfourth2]

The population of the southeast will carry on to increase in density until a critical mass is reached.

At which point it will collapse into a singlarity of self obssesed tttishness

Some belive this has already happened

[mgmrw2003]

tomw2000 said:

V88Dicky said:

So Northern kids don't follow Tony Bliar's mantra and go to University, and?

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

That's not gonna happen any time soon. (imo).

Depends on 2 things IMHO: 1) what they see their prospects as, AND 2) how hard UCAS is pushed upon them from an early age.

Some northern areas, education can be a way of avoiding that there dole queue.

"By eck it wa ard when tha wa young en, darn that thurr pit."

[tomw2000]

mgmrw2003 said:

tomw2000 said:

V88Dicky said:

So Northern kids don't follow Tony Bliar's mantra and go to University, and?

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

That's not gonna happen any time soon. (imo).

Depends on 2 things IMHO: 1) what they see their prospects as, AND 2) how hard UCAS is pushed upon them from an early age.

Some northern areas, education can be a way of avoiding that there dole queue.

"By eck it wa ard when tha wa young en, darn that thurr pit."

And (3) poor parenting.

[Zod]

I went from a Northern Grammar to Cambridge and now live and work in London. My kids will (if clever enough) go to public schools around London and thence to Oxbridge. I'm just one of thousands to follow this route.

The big difference between now and twenty/thirty/forty years ago is that back then the Northern grammars used to get nearly as many children into Oxbridge as Eton, Westminster, St Paul's etc. Now the numbers from the Northern grammars have shrunk while the public achools have maintained theirs.

[SHutchinson]

I wonder why Durham University was omitted from the survey.

[mgmrw2003]

tomw2000 said:

And (3) poor parenting.

Explain. We saying poor parents will shove them into uni, or poor parenting will prevent it?

I'm from a distinctly average family, in a northern town with high unemployment, and 1x steelworks supporting whats left. Around here you have 3choices of career:

1) the dole
2) heavy industry. So become a sparky/welder/clanky/oppo
3) go to uni, gain some meaningless degree, and dream of getting a job in a shiny city somewhere.


for the record, I was off for option 2) but school and college persuaded me that 3) was a better bet. So I now have 1x BSc and 1x MSc, both completely fking useless, as I'm temping at that there steelworks, after being an oppo in that there heavy industry - a quarry

[mgmrw2003]

Kermit power said:

This study, however, is looking just at the top universities - the ones who produce the graduates that we actually do need.

So are we saying that only degrees from Oxbridge are useful for any career? and that none of the polys that have converted have anything to offer..... even if they specialise in niche subject areas

[Mr Whippy]

Maybe 'Northerners' like it up here, and don't want to go to London to study?

I wouldn't have liked been a student in London at all... Cambridge and Oxford maybe nicer?!

All the courses I wanted to do had good universities north of Coventry for those courses, so why go further than you need?

Dave

[caymanjames]

SHutchinson said:

I wonder why Durham University was omitted from the survey.

because its become a commune for private school kids who are not very clever and wet behind the ears

[mgmrw2003]

Mr Whippy said:

Maybe 'Northerners' like it up here, and don't want to go to London to study?

I wouldn't have liked been a student in London at all... Cambridge and Oxford maybe nicer?!

All the courses I wanted to do had good universities north of Coventry for those courses, so why go further than you need?

Dave

+1. The OH was the same. Harrogate college via Leeds Met, or somewhere in waled (can't remember where) were the best for her area.

[Johnnytheboy]

I went to Imperial and most UK students were from the south/south east.

I ascribed that - and this graph - to the fact that maybe a lot of people like to go to a university within a reasonable travel distance of where they're from.

It's not like the north doesn't have some good universities.

[otolith]

I can see another small factor in why able students from the South East and London might be more likely to opt for Oxford or Cambridge than those from the rest of the UK...

[V88Dicky]

Off topic slightly, but my missus is a bright lass who I respect immensely. She grew up near me in a mining village in Sunderland, attended a school not particularly known for success, and went on from there to Sunderland University to study for a degree in Business.
She held down two part-time jobs whilst she studied, and eventually came away with a 2:1 in Business Studies.

She joined an automotive components plant nearby in the post of HR assistant, and within 7 years was promoted several times up to HR Manager.

I wish kids these days could take a leaf out of her book. I know some do, but it's not enough.

[tomw2000]

mgmrw2003 said:

tomw2000 said:

And (3) poor parenting.

Explain. We saying poor parents will shove them into uni, or poor parenting will prevent it?

I'm saying one of the (big - imo) reasons we have kids who won't be like this:

Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.

is that their parents have done a sh*t job.

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 8th July 14:06 - my parents clearly did a poor job at preparing me for ph quotes

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 8th July 14:08

[mgmrw2003]

tomw2000 said:

mgmrw2003 said:

tomw2000 said:

And (3) poor parenting.

Explain. We saying poor parents will shove them into uni, or poor parenting will prevent it?

I'm saying one of the (big - imo) reasons we have kids who won't be like this:

[quote]
Maybe we'll have a generation of kids grow up with their feet firmly planted on terra firma and with a modicum of commonsense, who are prepared to leave school and get into a job, without complaining that it's beneath them.
[/quote/

is that their parents have done a sh*t job.

Ah, as in the parents have lead them to believe that uni is the answer to all their problems?