Pope withdraws ambassador to Ireland
Discussion
The Eire government has reacted to the Cloyne Report strongly and this would appear to have upset the catholic church more than a little.
Withdrawing ambassador
With some background here
This seems to me to be a sea change. This report suggests a groundswell against the way the church handled the abuse scandal. Does anyone know if this is the correct slant?
In my younger days the Eire government was controlled by the catholic church. It was sharia law.
Withdrawing ambassador
With some background here
This seems to me to be a sea change. This report suggests a groundswell against the way the church handled the abuse scandal. Does anyone know if this is the correct slant?
In my younger days the Eire government was controlled by the catholic church. It was sharia law.
Pondered Scrotum said:
Religious people squabbling like school kids.
Nothing new.
Dismissive and disrespectrful comment - I would suggest.Nothing new.
This is not a religious issue at all. It is about the abuse of power and criminal activity by a body which was once thought to be above reproach. The Catholic Church in Ireland behaved appallingly over decades and does not like being criticised for their failure to act.
The Irish Prime Minister was absolutely correct to say what he did and the Catholic Church is being shown to be totally insensitive to the public mood in that country.
In my opinion, they are finished in Ireland. It only took 1,600 years but it has finally happened - and all caused by their own dispicable behaviour.
You are the Pope.
Everyone has known for donkeys years that catholic priests have seduced a few choirboys. Hey, no real harm in that, who hasn't, you think. In the past if a "problem priest" is caught giving dickyback rides to the kids in his care on sufficient occasions, then you simply send him off to an African mission so he can bum some lovely black kids as they don't count, right. However, evidence in Ireland emerges of systematic sexual and physical abuse on an institutional scale and the Govt launches an official enquiry.
So do you:
a) Assist with the enquiry, or do everything in your considerable power to cover up the problem with lies and deceit?
and
b) When the enquiry criticises you for the attempted cover up, do you withdraw your representative to Ireland?
Everyone has known for donkeys years that catholic priests have seduced a few choirboys. Hey, no real harm in that, who hasn't, you think. In the past if a "problem priest" is caught giving dickyback rides to the kids in his care on sufficient occasions, then you simply send him off to an African mission so he can bum some lovely black kids as they don't count, right. However, evidence in Ireland emerges of systematic sexual and physical abuse on an institutional scale and the Govt launches an official enquiry.
So do you:
a) Assist with the enquiry, or do everything in your considerable power to cover up the problem with lies and deceit?
and
b) When the enquiry criticises you for the attempted cover up, do you withdraw your representative to Ireland?
Edited by Andy Zarse on Tuesday 26th July 08:13
In Ireland, it wasn't just the "traditional" troublesome priest.
It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
Eric Mc said:
In Ireland, it wasn't just the "traditional" troublesome priest.
It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
I saw a film about the laundries a few years ago, I can't remember what it was called but was utterly unbelievable. Actually I think at the end it said they only closed the last one in the early nineties.It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
Jockman said:
Eric Mc said:
The Catholic Chiurch in Ireland is finished - and not a moment too soon.
More likely reinvent itself Eric, though I agree with your sentiments.They are losing the support of the population at a rate of knots.
Eric Mc said:
In Ireland, it wasn't just the "traditional" troublesome priest.
It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
I know I've posted this before but:It was also major church run institutions - such as convents, seminaries, schools, borstals, orphnages etc etc where all sorts of physical and mental abuses were carried out - and not just by male clerics.
Read up on the Magdalene Laundries to see that female slave labour and illegal imprisonment was fully endorsed and practiced by church organisations right up until the 1980s - and that was women perpterating evilness on other women.
It was truly, truly awful.
My paternal grandmother was taken from her single mother, together with her twin brother, to protect her morally. This wasn't until she was 6 or so as below that age she would cost more in food - despite being put on a starvation dieat - than she would product. She was taken to a nun-run workhouse just outside the town of Cork. her brother cried a lot - as one would expect - and so they locked him in a cupboard where he died.
My grandmother ran away, probably 13 or 14 years of age, and got transport to Liverpool where she 'married'. He was also Irish. It was not unusual in those days, this in the late 19th c, not to go through the rigmarole of curch blessings.
She lived until her 90s, her actual age was in doubt, but she still would not admit to anyone outside the boys in her family of the fact that her parents were not married. They managed to instil guilt in her.
One of the sons returned to the workhouse but it was by then out of use. There was no record of her twin brother although there was of her.
She had 18 children that lived to be toddlers. She didn't really count them up until then. The last was my father in 1914.
She was intelligent, quick, had a great sense of humour and was totally uneducated. She was poor, female and a b
d so not worthy.My grandmother changed the family to methodists following a fraught - for him - meeting with a vicar who was after money from her laundry profits. The family were, however, still counted as catholic. 20 bodies, that's a lot to let go.
My abiding memory of my grandmother is being taken for a walk. There was a nunnery, a sort of training school I think, and my gran walked into a couple of them, all but knocking one over.
I don't know if the workhouse was a laundry. However, after my grandfather returned from WWi leaving most of his lungs somewhere she took up laundry as a source of income - no pension for my grandad. Her hands had absolutely no sensation in them after continually putting them in boiling water.
The odd thing is that some of her daughters, my aunts, formed what I called the hail mary brigade. All beads and tuts.
Interesting story. However, the events you describe so graphically occured in an era where that general moral disapproval of illegitimacy was not confined to the Catholic Church. And workhouses had not been invented by the Catholic Church either. They were a very British, Protestant, style of institition. Despite that, the Catholic Church seemed to enthusiastically embrace their concept.
What was really awful about Ireland is that these views and methods of operating remained mainstream right until the 1980s/90s. Britain had ungergone a social revolution post WW1 and WW2. This had completely passed Ireland by.
While you can tell of a grandmother who suffered appallingly at the turn of the 19th/20th Centuries, there are people being interviewed in the Irish media TODAY who are only in their mid 40s and 50s who can recall similar treatment in the 1960s and 70s.
I grew up in Ireland in that era and was totally unaware of the hoorors that were being perpetrated on children of a similar age to me. I find it deeply, deeply upsetting and it was only right that Enda Kenny said what he said.
Shame on the Catholic Church for taking umbrage. I hope the Papal Nuncio doesn't come back.
What was really awful about Ireland is that these views and methods of operating remained mainstream right until the 1980s/90s. Britain had ungergone a social revolution post WW1 and WW2. This had completely passed Ireland by.
While you can tell of a grandmother who suffered appallingly at the turn of the 19th/20th Centuries, there are people being interviewed in the Irish media TODAY who are only in their mid 40s and 50s who can recall similar treatment in the 1960s and 70s.
I grew up in Ireland in that era and was totally unaware of the hoorors that were being perpetrated on children of a similar age to me. I find it deeply, deeply upsetting and it was only right that Enda Kenny said what he said.
Shame on the Catholic Church for taking umbrage. I hope the Papal Nuncio doesn't come back.
When the Irish government actually prosecutes church leaders, like Bishops etc then & only then will I truly believe government and church have entered a new era (for the good of all).
Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
Johnboy Mac said:
When the Irish government actually prosecutes church leaders, like Bishops etc then & only then will I truly believe government and church have entered a new era (for the good of all).
Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
Quite a few priests have been prosecuted for the deeds they caried out. Quite a few have not - although many of them escaped prosecution because they have since died.Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
The problem with prosecuting the hierarchy is working out what actual crimes the hierarchy has commiitted. Failure to notify the authorities of knowledge of a criminal act committed by another is not a crime in itself. Indeed, if the knowledge had been obtained through the "confessional", then the church has no legal obligation to pass such information on. It would be looked on as a breach of confidence. Solicitors have the same priviledges here and in Ireland.
The sanctity of the confession is a major debating poimnt in Ireland at the moment, and the tension netween state civic law and church canon law is also undergoing a big debate.
These are very interesting times in Ireland and I expect major changes to all aspects of the relationship with the church and the state over the next few years.
Eric Mc said:
Johnboy Mac said:
When the Irish government actually prosecutes church leaders, like Bishops etc then & only then will I truly believe government and church have entered a new era (for the good of all).
Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
Quite a few priests have been prosecuted for the deeds they caried out. Quite a few have not - although many of them escaped prosecution because they have since died.Sadly, that won't happen simply because the government as usual are gutless and don't have the balls. Both the government & church are just playing politics, nothing more.
Worth taking on board too, that past Irish governments have a lot to answer for in relation to how the church operated within the State.
Between the church and government the Irish people has being raped both physically and financially. There're a fair match for one another!
The problem with prosecuting the hierarchy is working out what actual crimes the hierarchy has commiitted. Failure to notify the authorities of knowledge of a criminal act committed by another is not a crime in itself. Indeed, if the knowledge had been obtained through the "confessional", then the church has no legal obligation to pass such information on. It would be looked on as a breach of confidence. Solicitors have the same priviledges here and in Ireland.
The sanctity of the confession is a major debating poimnt in Ireland at the moment, and the tension netween state civic law and church canon law is also undergoing a big debate.
These are very interesting times in Ireland and I expect major changes to all aspects of the relationship with the church and the state over the next few years.
The pope is not new to the abuse scandal, and I'd like to leave this letter he wrote when prefect to the blah blah of the faith in relation to child abuse allegations in the church.
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/res...
Utter, utter scum.
You may also want to look up Bishop Bernard Law, who now resides in Rome, away from prosecution in the US.
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/res...
Utter, utter scum.
You may also want to look up Bishop Bernard Law, who now resides in Rome, away from prosecution in the US.
Edited by ChiChoAndy on Tuesday 26th July 10:30
Eric Mc said:
Try that in a court.
There is the moral aspect - on which there is no doubt,
And then there is the legal aspect - which is much more tricky.
What are you saying, that no effort should be made to prosecute the church hierarchy because it might be a difficult case? And if not what are you really saying in this post and the one prior? There is the moral aspect - on which there is no doubt,
And then there is the legal aspect - which is much more tricky.
So president Ratzinger, whose previous job, as well as being a cardinal in Germany, was preventing world wide all priests and the church from charges about paedophilia, is now getting his cumuppance!! About time too... this IMO criminal organisation has been molesting children, in more than one way, for centuries and it is time they were brought to justice. Well done Ireland for standing up to these criminals!!!
We in Germany will have to pay over €11million for his unwanted visit to Freiburg coming soon. The majority of Germany does NOT want his visit, but his propaganda ministry has bought, or religiously and psychologically influenced the politicians to welcome the head of the largest criminal organisation in the world!!!
We in Germany will have to pay over €11million for his unwanted visit to Freiburg coming soon. The majority of Germany does NOT want his visit, but his propaganda ministry has bought, or religiously and psychologically influenced the politicians to welcome the head of the largest criminal organisation in the world!!!
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