The Tories blaming the Police
Discussion
I guess I'd be pretty pissed off at having to cut my summer holidays too, but the largely absent government seem to be laying into the Police for all the issues of this last week, and also seeking to take the glory for fixing things by deeming to come home three days after they should have done.....
There are some seriously hacked off Police (bith senior and lower ranks I suspect), so just how the hell has our absent government managed to carry this off exactly? Hugh Orde was spitting feathers from a very dry throat on the radio now just.....
Seriously, the 'home secretary' should be resigning after this debacle. But no, not in the case of these modern government ministers, which dont seem to dish out the blame and sack the long term professionals rather than take any blame themselves....
There are some seriously hacked off Police (bith senior and lower ranks I suspect), so just how the hell has our absent government managed to carry this off exactly? Hugh Orde was spitting feathers from a very dry throat on the radio now just.....
Seriously, the 'home secretary' should be resigning after this debacle. But no, not in the case of these modern government ministers, which dont seem to dish out the blame and sack the long term professionals rather than take any blame themselves....
In all honesty the police did underestimate the extent of the disturbances. That said, it was unprecedented so they have excuses, perfectly valid excuses, but they did get it wrong.
Part of the reason was the cuts in funding that have been happening year on year. That means the last government as well as this one. The person who planned the response would have had a budget that they would have to stick to.
Further, if 16k officers had been deployed I doubt if the troubles would have kicked off to the extent that it did and we'd have had a very busy couple of nights and no more. And then, of course, the police would have got it all wrong and been heavily criticised.
All in all I can't see how anyone could have guessed the extent of the riots. But that doesn't mean, of course, that the Mets got it right.
Cameron could, of course, have chosen different language but perhaps he wanted to really irritate the police after the ACPO head had a go at him.
Part of the reason was the cuts in funding that have been happening year on year. That means the last government as well as this one. The person who planned the response would have had a budget that they would have to stick to.
Further, if 16k officers had been deployed I doubt if the troubles would have kicked off to the extent that it did and we'd have had a very busy couple of nights and no more. And then, of course, the police would have got it all wrong and been heavily criticised.
All in all I can't see how anyone could have guessed the extent of the riots. But that doesn't mean, of course, that the Mets got it right.
Cameron could, of course, have chosen different language but perhaps he wanted to really irritate the police after the ACPO head had a go at him.
Derek Smith said:
In all honesty the police did underestimate the extent of the disturbances. That said, it was unprecedented so they have excuses, perfectly valid excuses, but they did get it wrong.
Part of the reason was the cuts in funding that have been happening year on year. That means the last government as well as this one. The person who planned the response would have had a budget that they would have to stick to.
Further, if 16k officers had been deployed I doubt if the troubles would have kicked off to the extent that it did and we'd have had a very busy couple of nights and no more. And then, of course, the police would have got it all wrong and been heavily criticised.
All in all I can't see how anyone could have guessed the extent of the riots. But that doesn't mean, of course, that the Mets got it right.
Cameron could, of course, have chosen different language but perhaps he wanted to really irritate the police after the ACPO head had a go at him.
So you are happy that Home Sec is claiming she solved the issue by ordering cancelling of Police leave and deploying 16k police? Which was apparantly happeneing without her anyway?Part of the reason was the cuts in funding that have been happening year on year. That means the last government as well as this one. The person who planned the response would have had a budget that they would have to stick to.
Further, if 16k officers had been deployed I doubt if the troubles would have kicked off to the extent that it did and we'd have had a very busy couple of nights and no more. And then, of course, the police would have got it all wrong and been heavily criticised.
All in all I can't see how anyone could have guessed the extent of the riots. But that doesn't mean, of course, that the Mets got it right.
Cameron could, of course, have chosen different language but perhaps he wanted to really irritate the police after the ACPO head had a go at him.
See if you can find the interview with Hugh Orde....
The police may have initially underestimated the potential of the riots to escalate but have since demonstrated a very commendable preparedness to tackle the situation.
From a friend on the force, I hear that (virtually) all leave is cancelled until further notice and that they will continue on 'riot stations' throught the weekend.
In retrospect, I think it would have been useful, in some of the earlier and more extreme riots, to deploy far more robust measures - pour encourager les autres - such as attack dogs, rubber bullets and water cannon. There would, no doubt, have been many ready to take offence on behalf of the rioting scumbags (several no doubt local to the Gruniad), especially where injures resulted, but I think it would have reduced the scale of riots and provided a very real deterrent and would have had the support of the majority in the UK.
From a friend on the force, I hear that (virtually) all leave is cancelled until further notice and that they will continue on 'riot stations' throught the weekend.
In retrospect, I think it would have been useful, in some of the earlier and more extreme riots, to deploy far more robust measures - pour encourager les autres - such as attack dogs, rubber bullets and water cannon. There would, no doubt, have been many ready to take offence on behalf of the rioting scumbags (several no doubt local to the Gruniad), especially where injures resulted, but I think it would have reduced the scale of riots and provided a very real deterrent and would have had the support of the majority in the UK.
Because the politicians should have come back from their holiday on day one to patrol the streets and arrest people?
The police were slow off the mark, no one else and the officers on the ground have had the credit in everything I've seen for putting it right in the end. All seems fair enough to me.
The police were slow off the mark, no one else and the officers on the ground have had the credit in everything I've seen for putting it right in the end. All seems fair enough to me.
Digga said:
The police may have initially underestimated the potential of the riots to escalate but have since demonstrated a very commendable preparedness to tackle the situation.
From a friend on the force, I hear that (virtually) all leave is cancelled until further notice and that they will continue on 'riot stations' throught the weekend.
In retrospect, I think it would have been useful, in some of the earlier and more extreme riots, to deploy far more robust measures - pour encourager les autres - such as attack dogs, rubber bullets and water cannon. There would, no doubt, have been many ready to take offence on behalf of the rioting scumbags (several no doubt local to the Gruniad), especially where injures resulted, but I think it would have reduced the scale of riots and provided a very real deterrent and would have had the support of the majority in the UK.
I think the Mets have responded after the initial incidents in a way that few other forces around the world could have done. Excellent, really excellent, service. I wasn't criticisng the initial police response. I can fully appreciate the pressures that limited it.From a friend on the force, I hear that (virtually) all leave is cancelled until further notice and that they will continue on 'riot stations' throught the weekend.
In retrospect, I think it would have been useful, in some of the earlier and more extreme riots, to deploy far more robust measures - pour encourager les autres - such as attack dogs, rubber bullets and water cannon. There would, no doubt, have been many ready to take offence on behalf of the rioting scumbags (several no doubt local to the Gruniad), especially where injures resulted, but I think it would have reduced the scale of riots and provided a very real deterrent and would have had the support of the majority in the UK.
Further, if the dogs had gone in on day one, would QT have been the same or would the panel be lining up to condemn police brutality and over-reaction?
The Mets will come up with a plan to combat any further rioting. That's what they do and they do it well. I was at the Battle of Lewisham (although at New Cross) in 1977. The Mets lost that one but again it was difficult to predict. Most of my serial didn't have shinpads, boxes or their heavy boots on. It was just another march.
In 1978 they had a re-run except this time the SWP came out in force to destroy the, erm, can't remember what it was and I bet neither can they. But by excellent planning one of the major demonstrations of the decade fizzled out. Lewisham nick got surrounded and we responded immediately. We were stood down before we could get there and we were embussed at Ladywell.
The Mets will not make the same mistake again.
Much has been made of the communications used by the demonstrators. This is their weakness. All you need is someone on the same link and the police know what's coming.
Elroy Blue said:
Cameron and May have shown themselves to be the most despicable kind of Politician imaginable.
Brown was just incompetent, Cameron is proving that he's spiteful as well as incompetent.
Not sure I would have used the modifier of just for Brown's incompetance but I'm with you for all the rest of it. May is a disaster.Brown was just incompetent, Cameron is proving that he's spiteful as well as incompetent.
Dave_ST220 said:
Who would be a copper? I know I wouldn't!
I retired from the police six years ago. I haven't missed it one bit.However, I have to say I would have loved to have been in the command and control centre for the riots. It would have been adrenaline all the way. There would have been the frustration of the nights without enough staff, the arguments about who goes where, the falling out and apologies and then, when the 16k were there the thrill of being able to do it all properly.
On the streets you have hours of boredom with minutes of sheer terror. Not good for the digestion. In the control room it would have been going on all the time. I've worked seven hours on one incident in a control room and not relieved myself - except verbally - ate, sat or had two minutes straight were I didn't have to make an important, sometimes vital, decision. Such times are really memorable.
I am really suprised to say I missed the thrill.
I thought the response by our emergency services was very poor. For the first 2 days in London, they were pretty dismal,(and I would include the Fire Service in that).
BTW, all those dissing the politicians for having to cancel their holidays (poor loves), we my neighbout but one is a Superintendent for a large "New Town" less than 50 miles from the mayhem in London, he left for a 2 week holiday in West Country last Friday, and is still away! There have been distrubances in this town, but nothing too major.
Apparently the "cancelling of Leave" in the Police that they referred to was only leave that had not yet begun.
BTW, all those dissing the politicians for having to cancel their holidays (poor loves), we my neighbout but one is a Superintendent for a large "New Town" less than 50 miles from the mayhem in London, he left for a 2 week holiday in West Country last Friday, and is still away! There have been distrubances in this town, but nothing too major.
Apparently the "cancelling of Leave" in the Police that they referred to was only leave that had not yet begun.
Firstly, the Conservatives were hardly going to put their hands up and say "this was out fault", just like any party in power. What everyone saw was hours and hours of live video of the Police in riot gear standing around and not stopping looting, arson etc. Whether this was because of insufficient Police, lack of command to kettle/stop the rioters etc. will unfortunately be a topic of debate for a long time. I just hope the result is a Police force with more teeth.
Did the police have powers in place to deal with this adequately?
Manpower, equipment etc?
Did they just lack either the will of the decisiveness?
Do they really need some politicians to either tell them to get on with their job or draft in some legislation or activate some emergency legislation?
Manpower, equipment etc?
Did they just lack either the will of the decisiveness?
Do they really need some politicians to either tell them to get on with their job or draft in some legislation or activate some emergency legislation?
RobDickinson said:
Did the police have powers in place to deal with this adequately?
Manpower, equipment etc?
Did they just lack either the will of the decisiveness?
Do they really need some politicians to either tell them to get on with their job or draft in some legislation or activate some emergency legislation?
I think they wanted politicians blessing to do what is needed (and this is the key part) even if it meant doing a bit more than hurting a scrotes feelings.Manpower, equipment etc?
Did they just lack either the will of the decisiveness?
Do they really need some politicians to either tell them to get on with their job or draft in some legislation or activate some emergency legislation?
That did not, and does not seem to be forthcoming.
SplatSpeed said:
sorry i thought it was the police's job to police the streets and maintain order!
the met chief is installed and removed by the mayor of London!
please correct me if i am wrong here!
The responsibility ultimatly ends with the Home Secretary. the met chief is installed and removed by the mayor of London!
please correct me if i am wrong here!
You can look it up on Wiki if you need to...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary
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