German company involved in talks to take over NHS hospitals
Discussion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/sep/04/germ...
If it happens will the Helios takeover be a good thing, or a bad thing?
If it happens will the Helios takeover be a good thing, or a bad thing?
Was slightly surprised to only see one post on the NHS. Thought that the near privatisation of our health service would be slightly more news worthy!
To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
maix27 said:
Was slightly surprised to only see one post on the NHS. Thought that the near privatisation of our health service would be slightly more news worthy!
To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
What he says...To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
It happens every time!
Puggit said:
maix27 said:
Was slightly surprised to only see one post on the NHS. Thought that the near privatisation of our health service would be slightly more news worthy!
To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
What he says...To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
It happens every time!
jammy_basturd said:
Puggit said:
maix27 said:
Was slightly surprised to only see one post on the NHS. Thought that the near privatisation of our health service would be slightly more news worthy!
To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
What he says...To answer your question, no, it will be a terrible thing. We are shockingly bad as a nation of seeing (finding/ getting) any 'value' from privatised institutions. It will be a money pit and will need saving at some point in the future.
It happens every time!
Let's not kid ourselves that 'private' equates to 'efficient'. Trains anyone? Southern Cross? There are many more examples.
maix27 said:
It's inefficient at the moment, but no one is exploiting it for profit. That's the difference. The later shouldn't always be the first port of call to solving the problem as in never does. It stays inefficient AND people exploit it for profit.
Let's not kid ourselves that 'private' equates to 'efficient'. Trains anyone? Southern Cross? There are many more examples.
That's because there is no 'competition'.Let's not kid ourselves that 'private' equates to 'efficient'. Trains anyone? Southern Cross? There are many more examples.
Competition is what drives prices down, and promotes efficiency. Going private is a good thing....if companies are allowed to compete.
The problem with the train service, etc is that no one is allowed to compete.
It also takes careful regulation to make sure that 'cartels' don't form amongst the companies that are supposed to be competing (like the energy companies have essentially done).
Either way...it is quite clear that 'Public' does not work at all....due to the unqualified people in the public services who make the decisions. At least when private comapanies are in control and 'go bad' you can actually take action against them. This is almost impossible to do with a 'public body', as no one is willing to claim accountability.
Spiritual_Beggar said:
That's because there is no 'competition'.
Competition is what drives prices down, and promotes efficiency. Going private is a good thing....if companies are allowed to compete.
The problem with the train service, etc is that no one is allowed to compete.
It also takes careful regulation to make sure that 'cartels' don't form amongst the companies that are supposed to be competing (like the energy companies have essentially done).
Either way...it is quite clear that 'Public' does not work at all....due to the unqualified people in the public services who make the decisions. At least when private comapanies are in control and 'go bad' you can actually take action against them. This is almost impossible to do with a 'public body', as no one is willing to claim accountability.
I agree... but we're never going to see competition, as we haven't with everything else in this country that's privatised. You really think we'll get it now? Or do you think it will be a carve-up to 'friendly' companies who will run the service into the ground, strip the profit and go crying to the government for more money? Competition is what drives prices down, and promotes efficiency. Going private is a good thing....if companies are allowed to compete.
The problem with the train service, etc is that no one is allowed to compete.
It also takes careful regulation to make sure that 'cartels' don't form amongst the companies that are supposed to be competing (like the energy companies have essentially done).
Either way...it is quite clear that 'Public' does not work at all....due to the unqualified people in the public services who make the decisions. At least when private comapanies are in control and 'go bad' you can actually take action against them. This is almost impossible to do with a 'public body', as no one is willing to claim accountability.
maix27 said:
I agree... but we're never going to see competition, as we haven't with everything else in this country that's privatised. You really think we'll get it now? Or do you think it will be a carve-up to 'friendly' companies who will run the service into the ground, strip the profit and go crying to the government for more money?
It's hard to tell.I seriously hope not (ever the optimist me
)I think the health service is slightly different from the rail service though. There would be nothing stopping a competing Hospital from opening up across the road from a previously owned NHS one.....nothing except the LCA.....but there is another problem altogether.
Like you see with Supermarkets...one opens....a competitor soon opens just down the road. I thnk this would actually be a huge benefit to the health service in this country.
Once again though, it all boils down to how it would be regulated. Unfortunately, like with most other sectors/ industries, it is often this 'regulation' (or lack of) that is part of the problem.
All I know is...going private could not be 'worse' than the way it is currently run under Public administration. It is possibly the biggest area where savings could be made through more efficient practices without seeing the quality of service drop.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3352489/Gerry-Ro...
Gerry Robinson showed them how this could be done....but it seems the people in charge just won't listen. The problem is the so called 'people in charge' are unqualified, stuck in their own ways, and too unwilling to makes the changes necessary to actually make the NHS a viable public service.
The NHS are worth the money IMO. Having extensively used it in the last few months I am glad someone wasn't hovering over me either checking I had enough money, or monitoring to make sure they were using the cheapest and bare minimum.
The NHS, given the size and scale of services, is excellent value for money. Easy to knock when you don't need it, but you are grateful to have it when you do. Privatisation will basiclaly mean those in Westminster lining their pockets. Again.
The NHS, given the size and scale of services, is excellent value for money. Easy to knock when you don't need it, but you are grateful to have it when you do. Privatisation will basiclaly mean those in Westminster lining their pockets. Again.
I agree,
The NHS isn't the best service in the world, it does need some changes, but by god, in 20 years, if these changes go through, we'll all be slating the day we let it happen. For everyone but the few who are private it is more than an essential service, it is completely paramount.
The other issue i have is purely that i put money into the NHS and i'd rather it was going to people who need it rathern that fattening someone's pockets. We always have to bear in mind that no private business runs for anything other than profit. There's no two ways about it. Some areas of healthcare are just not profitable, yet we'll sell them off as if they are.
The NHS isn't the best service in the world, it does need some changes, but by god, in 20 years, if these changes go through, we'll all be slating the day we let it happen. For everyone but the few who are private it is more than an essential service, it is completely paramount.
The other issue i have is purely that i put money into the NHS and i'd rather it was going to people who need it rathern that fattening someone's pockets. We always have to bear in mind that no private business runs for anything other than profit. There's no two ways about it. Some areas of healthcare are just not profitable, yet we'll sell them off as if they are.
I've worked for the NHS for a while now and agree competition is a good idea. The best thing about capitalism is the, "survival of the fittest" mentality.
However, having also heard of it's implementations. It's pretty brutal.
Research into rare disease? No market, no profit, no interest. Gold standard medicine too expensive? Give them the cheaper alternative... Need medications? No problem sir, but we'll also be charging an extra 20% on top of their actual cost.
Whilst it's currently obviously a consideration (NICE for example do a ridiculously hard job as a result), the problem is the cost effectiveness comes into a more frequent conflict with the patients' interests when it's run as a business.
The NHS needs to be leaner and more efficient, but it's facing problems that the scale of which was never envisioned. Whether it's even possible to cope seems unlikely at this point.
Personally I see no future other than the NHS providing your most basic care and personal medical care being needed in the future but abandoning ship is a terrible idea for a great number of reasons including the ones I've mentioned.
However, having also heard of it's implementations. It's pretty brutal.
Research into rare disease? No market, no profit, no interest. Gold standard medicine too expensive? Give them the cheaper alternative... Need medications? No problem sir, but we'll also be charging an extra 20% on top of their actual cost.
Whilst it's currently obviously a consideration (NICE for example do a ridiculously hard job as a result), the problem is the cost effectiveness comes into a more frequent conflict with the patients' interests when it's run as a business.
The NHS needs to be leaner and more efficient, but it's facing problems that the scale of which was never envisioned. Whether it's even possible to cope seems unlikely at this point.
Personally I see no future other than the NHS providing your most basic care and personal medical care being needed in the future but abandoning ship is a terrible idea for a great number of reasons including the ones I've mentioned.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Monday 5th September 13:51
I agree that the NHS is a worthwhile service....
BUT
Just because it is worthwhile...doesn't mean it should be costing the taxpayer twice or three times what it COULD actually cost to provide the same quality of service.
The amount of 'Wastage' in the NHS is unrivalled by any other industry....public or private.
So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
Just think, how many more vital drugs could be provided free of charge on the NHS if so much money wasn't already being wasted!
BUT
Just because it is worthwhile...doesn't mean it should be costing the taxpayer twice or three times what it COULD actually cost to provide the same quality of service.
The amount of 'Wastage' in the NHS is unrivalled by any other industry....public or private.
So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
Just think, how many more vital drugs could be provided free of charge on the NHS if so much money wasn't already being wasted!
Spiritual_Beggar said:
I agree that the NHS is a worthwhile service....
BUT
Just because it is worthwhile...doesn't mean it should be costing the taxpayer twice or three times what it COULD actually cost to provide the same quality of service.
The amount of 'Wastage' in the NHS is unrivalled by any other industry....public or private.
So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
Just think, how many more vital drugs could be provided free of charge on the NHS if so much money wasn't already being wasted!
If this is what the government were looking to do, and this was their aim, I'd back it 100%. I just can't help thinking their changes are ideological. BUT
Just because it is worthwhile...doesn't mean it should be costing the taxpayer twice or three times what it COULD actually cost to provide the same quality of service.
The amount of 'Wastage' in the NHS is unrivalled by any other industry....public or private.
So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
Just think, how many more vital drugs could be provided free of charge on the NHS if so much money wasn't already being wasted!
Talking from experience here, Helios in Germany run very good, clean, efficient and top drawer medical services.
IF they are going to take over the NHS (can't actually figure it as it's so large) I'd expect there to be a massacre of the inneficient NHS middle management, getting rid of all the trouser polishers and form-fillers and getting the nursing staff and doctors good wages and excellent post-training courses.
THAT is the priority in the sick NHS... not making more non-jobs for busybody jobsworths.....
IF they are going to take over the NHS (can't actually figure it as it's so large) I'd expect there to be a massacre of the inneficient NHS middle management, getting rid of all the trouser polishers and form-fillers and getting the nursing staff and doctors good wages and excellent post-training courses.
THAT is the priority in the sick NHS... not making more non-jobs for busybody jobsworths.....
Spiritual_Beggar said:
The amount of 'Wastage' in the NHS is unrivalled by any other industry....public or private.
So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
I agree, but I am deeply sceptical that savings will come from commercialisation. On the contrary, where do the profits go? Or will these kindly Germans be coming to our rescue and not expect payment?So just because it provides a vital service....doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at to see where savings could be made.
The problem is that quantifying the "waste", is rather tricky in an environment such as ours. The tabloids and rags are very keen to obtain data without context and parade it around as if we've no consideration whatsoever.
Also it is completely unreasonable to expect any actual monetary savings given the population's wilful ignorance and desire to burden society with self inflicted health problems.
I agree though, efficiency savings are essential and can been made, but commercialisation on such a scale is a broadsword when only a scalpel is required.
JMGS4 said:
Talking from experience here, Helios in Germany run very good, clean, efficient and top drawer medical services.
IF they are going to take over the NHS (can't actually figure it as it's so large) I'd expect there to be a massacre of the inneficient NHS middle management, getting rid of all the trouser polishers and form-fillers and getting the nursing staff and doctors good wages and excellent post-training courses.
THAT is the priority in the sick NHS... not making more non-jobs for busybody jobsworths.....
Spot on. The waste in the public sector generally is massive. Many pointless jobs can be removed without touching the actual 'front line' service. Unfortunately, they'll nearly all be expensive to get rid of because of overly generous terms and conditions.IF they are going to take over the NHS (can't actually figure it as it's so large) I'd expect there to be a massacre of the inneficient NHS middle management, getting rid of all the trouser polishers and form-fillers and getting the nursing staff and doctors good wages and excellent post-training courses.
THAT is the priority in the sick NHS... not making more non-jobs for busybody jobsworths.....
Ok here is a question
What if govt. procures drugs in bulk at the cheapest price and distributes it to all hospitals ?
What if private companies run the hospitals and get paid on a tariff from the govt based on what we use?
The only issue here is then the tariffs for every type of treatment. So let the public sector operate speciality hospitals alone to treat all the major cases and let all the daily lower tariff stuff be handled by private providers. Quick and efficient for the smaller stuff, detailed and personal care regardless of cost for the complicated cases.
I think we save a huge amount of money this way and still have best drugs, research and treatments in the world.
What if govt. procures drugs in bulk at the cheapest price and distributes it to all hospitals ?
What if private companies run the hospitals and get paid on a tariff from the govt based on what we use?
The only issue here is then the tariffs for every type of treatment. So let the public sector operate speciality hospitals alone to treat all the major cases and let all the daily lower tariff stuff be handled by private providers. Quick and efficient for the smaller stuff, detailed and personal care regardless of cost for the complicated cases.
I think we save a huge amount of money this way and still have best drugs, research and treatments in the world.
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