We need engineers.
Discussion
If UK firms struggle to find engineers the following seems a little odd:
"Nearly a quarter of UK engineering graduates are working in non-graduate jobs or unskilled work such as waiting and shop work, a report suggests.
The study says it is "not easy or automatic" for qualified engineers to find related employment in the UK.
Employers and industry leaders have repeatedly raised concerns about a lack of good quality science and engineering graduates.
But research from Birmingham University research challenges this viewpoint.
The report - entitled Is there a shortage of scientists? - is being presented to the British Educational Research Association (Bera) annual conference in London on Thursday.
It analysed figures from 1986 to 2009 from the Higher Education Statistical Agency on the proportions of engineering students entering related jobs, other professions or work that did not require a degree in 2009.
It is astonishing, in the light of claims of science graduate shortages, that so few new graduates go into related employment”
The findings suggest that less than half (about 46%) of 2009 engineering graduates were in jobs directly related to their degree subject six months after leaving university.
About one in five (20%) were employed in roles that were not directly related to their degree and about one in four (24%) were in "non-graduate" employment, for example working as waiters or in shops.
The report says: "Perhaps, because of recent initiatives, there seem to be too many people studying science for the labour market to cope with, or perhaps graduates are no longer of sufficient quality.
"It is more likely, however, that all of these scientists are without relevant employment every year because the shortage thesis is wrong and there are no jobs waiting for all of them or because they are 'dropping out' having learnt that they do not enjoy their subject areas."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14823042
"Nearly a quarter of UK engineering graduates are working in non-graduate jobs or unskilled work such as waiting and shop work, a report suggests.
The study says it is "not easy or automatic" for qualified engineers to find related employment in the UK.
Employers and industry leaders have repeatedly raised concerns about a lack of good quality science and engineering graduates.
But research from Birmingham University research challenges this viewpoint.
The report - entitled Is there a shortage of scientists? - is being presented to the British Educational Research Association (Bera) annual conference in London on Thursday.
It analysed figures from 1986 to 2009 from the Higher Education Statistical Agency on the proportions of engineering students entering related jobs, other professions or work that did not require a degree in 2009.
It is astonishing, in the light of claims of science graduate shortages, that so few new graduates go into related employment”
The findings suggest that less than half (about 46%) of 2009 engineering graduates were in jobs directly related to their degree subject six months after leaving university.
About one in five (20%) were employed in roles that were not directly related to their degree and about one in four (24%) were in "non-graduate" employment, for example working as waiters or in shops.
The report says: "Perhaps, because of recent initiatives, there seem to be too many people studying science for the labour market to cope with, or perhaps graduates are no longer of sufficient quality.
"It is more likely, however, that all of these scientists are without relevant employment every year because the shortage thesis is wrong and there are no jobs waiting for all of them or because they are 'dropping out' having learnt that they do not enjoy their subject areas."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14823042
I think there are elements not mentioned. If you graduate in any 'serious' sort of degree, that opens up a very wide world of possibilities for you. So graduates in any discipline may end up working in unrelated fields - banking as a very apt example.
Howedver, to be a professional engineer, you must have at least some basic engineering qualification.
I can recall talking to students and teachers about the emphasis on IT which crept in to education throughout the nineties and was told we'd need fewer engineers...
Howedver, to be a professional engineer, you must have at least some basic engineering qualification.
I can recall talking to students and teachers about the emphasis on IT which crept in to education throughout the nineties and was told we'd need fewer engineers...
I've wondered about this myself, not just engineering graduates, but the sort of thing one sees on TV, bunches of people training to be gas fitters, plumbers, bricklayers etc, are there really jobs for all those people too?
The feeling that I get is that in the real world there isn't enough of any kind of job, no matter what one trains in.
The feeling that I get is that in the real world there isn't enough of any kind of job, no matter what one trains in.
Singlecoil, I know brickies are having a very thin time of it lately, but gas fitters and plumbers much less so. I was always amazed and appalled in equal measure that careers adivce at school was so s
t.
If you weren't on the A level-further education trajectory, they really didn't give a monkeys. No one was ever told you could make a very good, honest living with a trade.
I am relieved to see many of my contemporaries who left school at 16 (although I did A levels I always did like to hang with the wtrong crowd, then as now
) )have succeeded despite the system's failings. One mate who was a real tearaway (was drving as early as 16) became a mechanic and then bought his own garage and MOT station business about 15 years ago and does very well. 
t.If you weren't on the A level-further education trajectory, they really didn't give a monkeys. No one was ever told you could make a very good, honest living with a trade.
I am relieved to see many of my contemporaries who left school at 16 (although I did A levels I always did like to hang with the wtrong crowd, then as now
) )have succeeded despite the system's failings. One mate who was a real tearaway (was drving as early as 16) became a mechanic and then bought his own garage and MOT station business about 15 years ago and does very well. singlecoil said:
The feeling that I get is that in the real world there isn't enough of any kind of job, no matter what one trains in.
Whilst I agree only too well with that statement the research runs from 1986. In that time we've been told by firms that there are not enough engineering graduates around. It has been a consistent cry.One wonders about the definition of 'engineering degree'. Not everyone will include lathes of course.
I expect to be lied to by businesses, banks and b
ds in government but I have to say this surprises me. My youngest lad has friends with engineering degrees who, whilst their jobs were not particularly well paid, were in their speciality and in three out of four cases took them around the world. I thought this was the norm.It seems I've believed myth again.
I suspect that this is simply a mismatch of each entities's description of 'engineer'. As well as a mismatch of 'qualified'.
Both groups are probably right. But talking about completely different things.
The only good thing to come out of tuition fees is that it now opens the way for manipulation.
If engineering firms fear a shortage of suitable graduates then all they need to do now is offer bursaries. Simple as.
They could even set up Free Schools that focus more on the sciences.
The entire education system from 5 to 21 is at their disposal.
But they don't and they won't which signifies quite clearly that this isn't the problem they are claiming, which leads you to think what their motivation really is.
More engineers = more competition so wages fall.
Both groups are probably right. But talking about completely different things.
The only good thing to come out of tuition fees is that it now opens the way for manipulation.
If engineering firms fear a shortage of suitable graduates then all they need to do now is offer bursaries. Simple as.
They could even set up Free Schools that focus more on the sciences.
The entire education system from 5 to 21 is at their disposal.
But they don't and they won't which signifies quite clearly that this isn't the problem they are claiming, which leads you to think what their motivation really is.
More engineers = more competition so wages fall.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th September 08:35
Digga said:
I am relieved to see many of my contemporaries who left school at 16 (although I did A levels I always did like to hang with the wtrong crowd, then as now ) )have succeeded despite the system's failings. One mate who was a real tearaway (was drving as early as 16) became a mechanic and then bought his own garage and MOT station business about 15 years ago and does very well.
A friend of mine left school, became a lawyer and worked his way up to the point he reckoned he turned out well. When he turned up at his school reunion in his nearly new Aston Martin he was fairly confident he would have been fairly high up on the tree of success. Then he pulled up next to a brand new Bentley (an expensive one) and started to run through who it was that had done better.) )have succeeded despite the system's failings. One mate who was a real tearaway (was drving as early as 16) became a mechanic and then bought his own garage and MOT station business about 15 years ago and does very well. The guy that owned the Bentley was the class idiot that failed everything, left school early with no pieces of paper. The only job he could find was working for someone in a junk shop, he got into antiques and became a millionaire.
There is paper smart and then there is street smart, ask Mr Sugar
There is no shortage at all except when:
1) they don't pay enough to attract the right person
2) they are too fussy about what they require
You wouldn't believe how many job adverts offer little but seem to require a vastly experienced high flyer.
There are plenty of ex engineers around in all sorts of jobs. A few years ago I visited a glass blowing shop and commented on the work benches being old machine stands. Apparently they just decided to stop making glass makers tools and just make the glass. Another engineer decided to make extra money tending graves. Pretty soon he had his own business charging for a monthly scrub and fresh flowers for hundreds of people (how much would you think a bloke with a bucket washing a headstone earns? He did all right apparently)
1) they don't pay enough to attract the right person
2) they are too fussy about what they require
You wouldn't believe how many job adverts offer little but seem to require a vastly experienced high flyer.
There are plenty of ex engineers around in all sorts of jobs. A few years ago I visited a glass blowing shop and commented on the work benches being old machine stands. Apparently they just decided to stop making glass makers tools and just make the glass. Another engineer decided to make extra money tending graves. Pretty soon he had his own business charging for a monthly scrub and fresh flowers for hundreds of people (how much would you think a bloke with a bucket washing a headstone earns? He did all right apparently)
I graduated from Uni of Bristol with a degree in chemistry - I never once considered a career in chemistry, it was purely a means to an end (ie getting a good job!).
What it did show was an aptitude for complex puzzle solving, maths, writing structured documentation etc. Great for so many careers
What it did show was an aptitude for complex puzzle solving, maths, writing structured documentation etc. Great for so many careers
Puggit said:
I graduated from Uni of Bristol with a degree in chemistry - I never once considered a career in chemistry, it was purely a means to an end (ie getting a good job!).
What it did show was an aptitude for complex puzzle solving, maths, writing structured documentation etc. Great for so many careers
Yup, did the same with a physics degree from Glasgow University.What it did show was an aptitude for complex puzzle solving, maths, writing structured documentation etc. Great for so many careers
Dont use the actual stuff they taught, but use the disciplines mentioned on a daily basis.
Puggit said:
What it did show was an aptitude for complex puzzle solving, maths, writing structured documentation etc. Great for so many careers
I am sure it did in your day but today pretty much anyone with a pulse can get a degree so not so sure that still applies. I would love to see someone leaving uni with a degree today sit the papers handed out 20 years ago and more to the point marked the same way as they were before the figures were "adjusted".What has gone wrong IMO is further education is seen as the only way forward, probably more to keep the unemployment figures down for whoever is in power at the time than anything else.
Ribol said:
am sure it did in your day but today pretty much anyone with a pulse can get a degree so not so sure that still applies. I would love to see someone leaving uni with a degree today sit the papers handed out 20 years ago and more to the point marked the same way as they were before the figures were "adjusted".
What has gone wrong IMO is further education is seen as the only way forward, probably more to keep the unemployment figures down for whoever is in power at the time than anything else.
That's more a function of the de branding of universities than the dumbing down. What has gone wrong IMO is further education is seen as the only way forward, probably more to keep the unemployment figures down for whoever is in power at the time than anything else.
Employers still know which are real Uni's and which are not. It forms the first set of random cv filters in many firms.
Digga said:
Howedver, to be a professional engineer, you must have at least some basic engineering qualification.
While I agree, it doesn't mean you are an engineer when you do get a qualification. You then need to gain experience in the real world. I've seen all to often engineering graduates come out of uni thinking they know it all. Perhaps that's why many are taking unrelated jobs. 
So are BP bad payers or are the after a very unusual skill set?
"UK engineering skills shortages are threatening to hold back growth at oil giant BP, according to Trevor Garlick, head of the company's North Sea operations.
The regional boss said the FTSE 100 company was planning to recruit between 150 and 300 jobs a year to help fuel an expected growth in production, but said one of the company's biggest problems was finding the right people with the right skills to fill vacant positions.
Last month, the company announced it would pump £3bn into its North Sea operations in a plan to redevelop two oilfields. The investment will see production expand at Schiehallion and Loyal oilfields, to the west of the Shetland Islands, in a move that would create hundreds of new jobs.
But Mr Garlick said BP would struggle to attract enough engineers for available roles.
When asked what the biggest barrier to growth at BP would be, he replied: "Skills – getting hold of the right people is a real issue for us. We are hiring a lot people, but we are also an exporter of a couple of hundred people to other regions [in BP]. We are centre for recruiting elsewhere."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8699946/BP...
"UK engineering skills shortages are threatening to hold back growth at oil giant BP, according to Trevor Garlick, head of the company's North Sea operations.
The regional boss said the FTSE 100 company was planning to recruit between 150 and 300 jobs a year to help fuel an expected growth in production, but said one of the company's biggest problems was finding the right people with the right skills to fill vacant positions.
Last month, the company announced it would pump £3bn into its North Sea operations in a plan to redevelop two oilfields. The investment will see production expand at Schiehallion and Loyal oilfields, to the west of the Shetland Islands, in a move that would create hundreds of new jobs.
But Mr Garlick said BP would struggle to attract enough engineers for available roles.
When asked what the biggest barrier to growth at BP would be, he replied: "Skills – getting hold of the right people is a real issue for us. We are hiring a lot people, but we are also an exporter of a couple of hundred people to other regions [in BP]. We are centre for recruiting elsewhere."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8699946/BP...
cymtriks said:
There is no shortage at all except when:
1) they don't pay enough to attract the right person
2) they are too fussy about what they require
You wouldn't believe how many job adverts offer little but seem to require a vastly experienced high flyer.
I've seen a few job ads like that over the last year or two!1) they don't pay enough to attract the right person
2) they are too fussy about what they require
You wouldn't believe how many job adverts offer little but seem to require a vastly experienced high flyer.
Seemingly every year we hear how there are not enough engineers yet supply and demand doesn't seem to apply to an engineers salary.
An engineer is not somebody who leaves uni with a degree in an engineering subject, that's mearly a start.
I'm approaching 40 & started an aircraft technician apprenticeship at the age of 17, clean out of failing to gain GCSE grade C in all bar one of my retakes.
I'm now senior design engineer for a global rail manufacturing company..
We have graduates come into the company who could not engineer their way out of a paper bag.
I think the article should be saying we have a shortage of EXPERIANCED ENGINEERS, I have 2 or 3 calls a week offering me contract work as there simply aren't enough 'time served' engineers.
I'm approaching 40 & started an aircraft technician apprenticeship at the age of 17, clean out of failing to gain GCSE grade C in all bar one of my retakes.
I'm now senior design engineer for a global rail manufacturing company..
We have graduates come into the company who could not engineer their way out of a paper bag.
I think the article should be saying we have a shortage of EXPERIANCED ENGINEERS, I have 2 or 3 calls a week offering me contract work as there simply aren't enough 'time served' engineers.
Fittster said:
So are BP bad payers or are the after a very unusual skill set?
"UK engineering skills shortages are threatening to hold back growth at oil giant BP, according to Trevor Garlick, head of the company's North Sea operations.
The regional boss said the FTSE 100 company was planning to recruit between 150 and 300 jobs a year to help fuel an expected growth in production, but said one of the company's biggest problems was finding the right people with the right skills to fill vacant positions.
Last month, the company announced it would pump £3bn into its North Sea operations in a plan to redevelop two oilfields. The investment will see production expand at Schiehallion and Loyal oilfields, to the west of the Shetland Islands, in a move that would create hundreds of new jobs.
But Mr Garlick said BP would struggle to attract enough engineers for available roles.
When asked what the biggest barrier to growth at BP would be, he replied: "Skills – getting hold of the right people is a real issue for us. We are hiring a lot people, but we are also an exporter of a couple of hundred people to other regions [in BP]. We are centre for recruiting elsewhere."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8699946/BP...
But that's 'skills' as opposed to qualifications. No-one leaves university with skills, those have to be acquired afterwards."UK engineering skills shortages are threatening to hold back growth at oil giant BP, according to Trevor Garlick, head of the company's North Sea operations.
The regional boss said the FTSE 100 company was planning to recruit between 150 and 300 jobs a year to help fuel an expected growth in production, but said one of the company's biggest problems was finding the right people with the right skills to fill vacant positions.
Last month, the company announced it would pump £3bn into its North Sea operations in a plan to redevelop two oilfields. The investment will see production expand at Schiehallion and Loyal oilfields, to the west of the Shetland Islands, in a move that would create hundreds of new jobs.
But Mr Garlick said BP would struggle to attract enough engineers for available roles.
When asked what the biggest barrier to growth at BP would be, he replied: "Skills – getting hold of the right people is a real issue for us. We are hiring a lot people, but we are also an exporter of a couple of hundred people to other regions [in BP]. We are centre for recruiting elsewhere."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8699946/BP...
There are plenty of engineers and engineering graduates out there.
Companies will always say they want more and better quality grads, duh...if everybody who walked through the doors was the next IKB or KHB then fantastic, if they had the business accumin of Buffet even better. The reality is of course the experience to make a grad into a good engineer only comes with experience, snap for producing someone with decent business accumin...it comes with time and experience.
Firms of course want this genius for the lowest price aswell. Strangely enough highly numerate, analytical, logical thinkers who come out with good engineering degrees see the starting grad salary of £20k+/-5k and then see the starting grad salary in the City of £30k+/-5k and guess who will be more attractive?
Companies will always say they want more and better quality grads, duh...if everybody who walked through the doors was the next IKB or KHB then fantastic, if they had the business accumin of Buffet even better. The reality is of course the experience to make a grad into a good engineer only comes with experience, snap for producing someone with decent business accumin...it comes with time and experience.
Firms of course want this genius for the lowest price aswell. Strangely enough highly numerate, analytical, logical thinkers who come out with good engineering degrees see the starting grad salary of £20k+/-5k and then see the starting grad salary in the City of £30k+/-5k and guess who will be more attractive?
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