The minimum wage: are we exporting all or jobs and wealth?
Discussion
I am putting this topic in News, Politics because I think it is really a question of the huge unintended consequences of Political doctrine.
The minimum wage is now £6.08 according to the BBC see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/
Given the unavoidable cost of National Insurance I think this is complete madness. I understand that we do not want slave labour.
But this will export jobs by the shedload.
Surely this is one of the fundamental mistakes the UK is making. Along with paying more to a couple with say, 5 children, in benefits and Housing allowances than they can earn on the minimum wage which means for them working is unnecessary. And very probably undesirable. Throughout their lives.
This cannot be right.
In my view it is the biggest economic problem we face as a nation over which we have control. This is our decision.
What do others think?
The minimum wage is now £6.08 according to the BBC see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/
Given the unavoidable cost of National Insurance I think this is complete madness. I understand that we do not want slave labour.
But this will export jobs by the shedload.
Surely this is one of the fundamental mistakes the UK is making. Along with paying more to a couple with say, 5 children, in benefits and Housing allowances than they can earn on the minimum wage which means for them working is unnecessary. And very probably undesirable. Throughout their lives.
This cannot be right.
In my view it is the biggest economic problem we face as a nation over which we have control. This is our decision.
What do others think?
I'm confused. I thought everybody wanted bargains and freebies and discounts and stuff for nothing. How can you get all that if prices have to go up because wages go up?
Look, it's just a way to try to get a bit of inflation going. So the debts 'shrink'. Y'know. 'Economic policy'. It works, too, in a bonkers sort of way.
Look, it's just a way to try to get a bit of inflation going. So the debts 'shrink'. Y'know. 'Economic policy'. It works, too, in a bonkers sort of way.
Steffan said:
I am putting this topic in News, Politics because I think it is really a question of the huge unintended consequences of Political doctrine.
The minimum wage is now £6.08 according to the BBC see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/
Given the unavoidable cost of National Insurance I think this is complete madness. I understand that we do not want slave labour.
But this will export jobs by the shedload.
Surely this is one of the fundamental mistakes the UK is making. Along with paying more to a couple with say, 5 children, in benefits and Housing allowances than they can earn on the minimum wage which means for them working is unnecessary. And very probably undesirable. Throughout their lives.
This cannot be right.
In my view it is the biggest economic problem we face as a nation over which we have control. This is our decision.
What do others think?
Completely agree with you. We do not want slave labour but if we are not competitive in the world we are guaranteeing it long term!The minimum wage is now £6.08 according to the BBC see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/
Given the unavoidable cost of National Insurance I think this is complete madness. I understand that we do not want slave labour.
But this will export jobs by the shedload.
Surely this is one of the fundamental mistakes the UK is making. Along with paying more to a couple with say, 5 children, in benefits and Housing allowances than they can earn on the minimum wage which means for them working is unnecessary. And very probably undesirable. Throughout their lives.
This cannot be right.
In my view it is the biggest economic problem we face as a nation over which we have control. This is our decision.
What do others think?
Any higher costs to business will mean we're exporting jobs and wealth. Employing people is just one of those costs. As we don't want slave labour, we should probably address other costs to doing business first and get them down to a minimum (i.e. close to £0). And then look to reducing wages if necessary (and it probably is).
FYI FWIW I think minimum wage is increasing slower than inflation ATM? Maybe that's something.
We do have control over this as a nation, however our nation is made up of people who haven't the first clue about where the money comes from and what drives business decision. Reducing the minimum wage would make the increase in tuition fees look sensationally popular. Medium to long term prospects for the UK are poor IMO. Be prepared to leave!
98elise said:
Whats the minimum you would work for?
Have you ever tried a really horrible job like care worker? One you take into account unpaid travelling time, it pays less than minimum wage.
Rather than artificially controlling peoples incomes with things like minimum wage we should allow those care workers wages drop through the floor. Then when nobody wants to be a care worker there will be some people who really need them who are prepared to pay enough to tempt someone into that line of work.Have you ever tried a really horrible job like care worker? One you take into account unpaid travelling time, it pays less than minimum wage.
The call centre staff where I work all have iPhone 4's and the like, and drive (some BMW's).
Negative Creep said:
Working 40 hours a week on minimum wage is only around £850 a month or so after tax. Not exactly enough for a high quality life
No, but equally they're paid around £10k/year or the equivalent of a cheap car (After tax! The cost of them is actually higher!).Does a minimum wage worker produce the equivalent output of 1 cheap car per year? That's what it comes down to.
Esseesse said:
Negative Creep said:
Working 40 hours a week on minimum wage is only around £850 a month or so after tax. Not exactly enough for a high quality life
No, but equally they're paid around £10k/year or the equivalent of a cheap car (After tax! The cost of them is actually higher!).Does a minimum wage worker produce the equivalent output of 1 cheap car per year? That's what it comes down to.
It's utterly impossible to judge someone's output by their pay. I'm sure bin men don't get paid that much but without them the country would fall apart
The minimum wage is a farce anyway. I left school in 1998, my first job out of school paid £3.00 an hour, that was at 16. Minimum wage for someone over 21 in 1999 was £3.60 an hour. The minimum wage for a 16yr old wasn't £3.00 an hour until 2004!
With minimum wage there's simply no reason for employers to compete, why should they when they only have to offer the bare minimum?
With minimum wage there's simply no reason for employers to compete, why should they when they only have to offer the bare minimum?
Negative Creep said:
I'm sure bin men don't get paid that much but without them the country would fall apart
It needs mentioning that also what governs pay is how high the barriers to entry are. Bin men may well be absolutely essential but there's also essentially no barriers to becoming a bin man (no disrespect to bin men). Anyone vaguely healthy can be a bin man, so there's a large supply of people pegging the pay down.If to be a bin man took having a phd then the pool of applicants would be small and the pay for this essential job would be heading towards 6 figures.
Negative Creep said:
I'm sure bin men don't get paid that much but without them the country would fall apart
That got me looking and this online profile won't be gospel but here we go.Refuse collection operatives earn between £11,000 and £17,000.
Drivers earn between £15,000 and £20,000.
Supervisors earn from £17,000 to £25,000.
Paid overtime may be possible.
There are press articles about bin men in Brum who throw sacks into refuse wagons getting a basic salary of £24k to £26k with drivers on £26k up, but overtime and bonus payments take the brummie bin men into the higher tax bracket on a total of £45k.
Where there's much there's brass.
This link cites £38k basic for drivers from 2010
turbobloke said:
That got me looking and this online profile won't be gospel but here we go.
Refuse collection operatives earn between £11,000 and £17,000.
Drivers earn between £15,000 and £20,000.
Supervisors earn from £17,000 to £25,000.
Paid overtime may be possible.
There are press articles about bin men in Brum who throw sacks into refuse wagons getting a basic salary of £24k to £26k with drivers on £26k up, but overtime and bonus payments take the brummie bin men into the higher tax bracket on a total of £45k.
Where there's much there's brass.
This link cites £38k basic
Still would not want to mix with the scum they need to deal with day in day out.Refuse collection operatives earn between £11,000 and £17,000.
Drivers earn between £15,000 and £20,000.
Supervisors earn from £17,000 to £25,000.
Paid overtime may be possible.
There are press articles about bin men in Brum who throw sacks into refuse wagons getting a basic salary of £24k to £26k with drivers on £26k up, but overtime and bonus payments take the brummie bin men into the higher tax bracket on a total of £45k.
Where there's much there's brass.
This link cites £38k basic
Negative Creep said:
I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of cleaners, call centre workers, till staff etc who work a lot harder...
How 'hard' you work isn't and shouldn't be directly related to how much you're paid though. It's how much value you add.This is a generalisation about the typical cleaner I have in my head, but they do not warrant being paid more than minimum wage. If I owned/ran an office and I required 1 cleaner, at £10k it might be worth it. At £20k+ it's likely you'd rather tell everyone to please do their bit stacking the dishwasher and wiping up after themselves please and accept that I might have to run a hoover round sometimes.
Esseesse said:
Negative Creep said:
I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of cleaners, call centre workers, till staff etc who work a lot harder...
How 'hard' you work isn't and shouldn't be directly related to how much you're paid though. It's how much value you add.This is a generalisation about the typical cleaner I have in my head, but they do not warrant being paid more than minimum wage. If I owned/ran an office and I required 1 cleaner, at £10k it might be worth it. At £20k+ it's likely you'd rather tell everyone to please do their bit stacking the dishwasher and wiping up after themselves please and accept that I might have to run a hoover round sometimes.
- skill level required
- scarcity of the skills required
- level of any qualifications or accreditations needed e.g. professions
- experience level if it's relevant to likely performance
- level of physical effort required
- level of mental effort required
- level of boredom to be tolerated
- effort expended e.g. hours
- physical risk level in occupying the role
- job security risk level inherent in the role
- working conditions to be endured not related to any risk
- level and quality of outcomes achieved
That last one can be simply adding to the bottom line, but with other connotations possible. Even at that point it's far more than just 'working hard'. Any additions?
ETA one from me taking the dirty dozen to a baker's:
- scalability of outputs
That's needed in my view for sectors such as sport and entertainment, where the income is partly reflecting skill level and scarcity but beyond that the national and international scalability of outputs amplifies income in my view, e.g. concerts around the world, global TV coverage, image rights for footballers.
Edited again to add: not looking to foment a full-on thread hijack Steffan, honest
Edited by turbobloke on Saturday 1st October 15:10
Oakey said:
The minimum wage is a farce anyway. I left school in 1998, my first job out of school paid £3.00 an hour, that was at 16. Minimum wage for someone over 21 in 1999 was £3.60 an hour. The minimum wage for a 16yr old wasn't £3.00 an hour until 2004!
With minimum wage there's simply no reason for employers to compete, why should they when they only have to offer the bare minimum?
yes I think thats the nub of it the minimum wage IS the wage for so many basic low skiled jobs not good and then not good for the economy when these people are claiming tax credits, mind with an endless supply of eastern europeans willing to work and live very cheaply , shareing houses etc to maximise what they earn to take home to poland, not much will change so realy we are exporting our wealth and impoversing our working class and saddling the welfare state with a huge burden at the same time...With minimum wage there's simply no reason for employers to compete, why should they when they only have to offer the bare minimum?
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