Navy and RAF Search & Rescue to be privatised!
Discussion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/892...
First they canned Nimrod, now they are canning the rest of the military's SAR.
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
Oi, Cameron, Nooooo!!!
First they canned Nimrod, now they are canning the rest of the military's SAR.
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
Oi, Cameron, Nooooo!!!
On the financials, presumably a private SAR firm would need to obtain all of its resources commercially, and would not benefit from the economies of scale afforded by being part of a large military organisation. The history of getting contracts right, especially in the loing term, is not a happy one.
If the firm is handed a budget and told to get on with it, there would be a direct conflict between operations and profitability with less activity and less investment = more profit.
One can almost expect volunteers (RNLI) and miliary SAR to put their lives on the line if they need to in exceptional circumstances, but can the same be expected of salaried employees of a commercial organisation? Would like to see the Health and Safety regulations!
Cannot see this being a vote winner either.
If the firm is handed a budget and told to get on with it, there would be a direct conflict between operations and profitability with less activity and less investment = more profit.
One can almost expect volunteers (RNLI) and miliary SAR to put their lives on the line if they need to in exceptional circumstances, but can the same be expected of salaried employees of a commercial organisation? Would like to see the Health and Safety regulations!
Cannot see this being a vote winner either.
sooperscoop said:
Newer airframes, better equipment, flown by the best cherry-picked ex-mil pilots, all for less money (if it's contracted correctly).
Hmm, I've never really nderstood how people work out how a profit making organisation can do the same job as a non-profit organisation, such as a government body.More efficiently, yes. That means with less staff and various other cost saving measures. That doesn't mean cheaper for the same service though. Because on top of what it would actually cost, they want to make a profit.
More pertinently though, why do we persist in being the only country that prvatises things that others have worked out long ago will either never make money enough to be properly private or shouldn't be a commercial organisation at all.
See the USA. Trains and and the Coastgurd are both state backed for these reasons.
Ayahuasca said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/892...
First they canned Nimrod, now they are canning the rest of the military's SAR.
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
Oi, Cameron, Nooooo!!!
Helicopter SAR is provided by the RAF, RN and MCA. The primary task of military SAR is to recover military aircrew from crashed aircraft. The secondary role is recover civilian aircrew from crashed aircraft, which is an international obligation. Rescuing yachties and hill walkers is carried out as training for their main tasks - not their reason for existance.First they canned Nimrod, now they are canning the rest of the military's SAR.
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
Oi, Cameron, Nooooo!!!
60 years ago there were sensible reasons for the military doing SAR: At the end of Second World War they had the most extensive SAR network; They had the most experience of operating experimental helicopters; and most importantly, there was a need for military SAR - as the RAF was far busier and more crucially far more dangerous (145 Meteor crashes in 1953 alone).
The UK SAR force has never had a Combat Search and Rescue Role. That is carried out by whatever airframe and aircew are available at the time in theatre. The development of the Medical Emergency Response Team only widens the gap further.
Today military call outs (including transfers of compassionate cases) are just 2% of their workload. Meanwhile the responsibility for recovering civilian aircrew really lies with the Department for Transport. Under the Civil Contingencies Act, Government departments are now very much responsible for sorting their own contingency planning rather than relying on the Armed Forces to provide Military Aid.
Which brings us to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency SAR Helicopters based in Sumburgh, Stornoway, Portland and Lee-on-Solent. These are already operated under a short contract (Interim SAR) by CHC Helicopters (and before that it was Bristow for many years), which was due to end in 2013 - it is now the subject of it's own interim replacement. CHC was part of the Soteria consortium and also operates the Irish Coastguard SAR helicopters.
Bond Helicopters also provide a North Sea SAR under contract to the oil companies. One aircraft is based at Sumburgh and another on an off-shore platform.
One way or another a solution is required very soon. The venerable Sea Kings are reaching the end of their service lives. The RAF in particular have only ever operated the Sea King in the UK SAR role - in other words they have maintained a whole separate fleet in terms of personnel, training and logistics that does not actively contribute to their operations role. The Royal Navy have a requirement for plane guard SAR to recover aircrew when flying from an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean. So they can spread the costs a little more. But this role is usually filled by any aircraft with a winch and a aircrew with winching experience (not necessarily the full on SAR training that the UK SAR Force undergo) - just witness the rescue of 23 sailors from MV Dubai Moon by HMS Chatham's Lynx.
Eric Mc said:
I thought this idea had been mooted under Labour and dropped last year?
It was. Competition had to be abandoned at a late stage as Soteria informed the Government that a relationship between an MOD official and one of the consortium members had potentially compromised the process.Maxf said:
sooperscoop said:
Newer airframes, better equipment, flown by the best cherry-picked ex-mil pilots, all for less money (if it's contracted correctly).
Thats the problem.ninja-lewis said:
Which brings us to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency SAR Helicopters based in Sumburgh, Stornoway, Portland and Lee-on-Solent. These are already operated under a short contract (Interim SAR) by CHC Helicopters (and before that it was Bristow for many years), which was due to end in 2013 - it is now the subject of it's own interim replacement. CHC was part of the Soteria consortium and also operates the Irish Coastguard SAR helicopters.
Bond Helicopters also provide a North Sea SAR under contract to the oil companies. One aircraft is based at Sumburgh and another on an off-shore platform.
Something I've always wondered about the CHC/Bristow/Bond SAR operations - are the crews predominantly ex-military or civilians? If ex-military, presumably they're mainly recruited from ex-RAF or RN SAR personnel so what's going to happen to the availability of high-calibre crews if the military stops training?Bond Helicopters also provide a North Sea SAR under contract to the oil companies. One aircraft is based at Sumburgh and another on an off-shore platform.
alangla said:
Something I've always wondered about the CHC/Bristow/Bond SAR operations - are the crews predominantly ex-military or civilians? If ex-military, presumably they're mainly recruited from ex-RAF or RN SAR personnel so what's going to happen to the availability of high-calibre crews if the military stops training?
all RN and RAF RW aircrew are SAR trained just those posted to the SAR units recieve extra training, as has been pointed out the UK based military SAR crews are doing 99% of their workload outside their actual role and it ties up military crews and airframes on civilian work.Merlin, Chinook and none SAR liveried SK all have winches and relevant equipment and provide in theatre SAR and potentially can transport MERT ( although it's primarily Chinook to transport MERT+ QRF + equipment in one aircraft).
there is no formed flying unit in the RAF or RN ORBAT for CSAR / MERT taskings
Ayahuasca said:
On the financials, presumably a private SAR firm would need to obtain all of its resources commercially, and would not benefit from the economies of scale afforded by being part of a large military organisation. The history of getting contracts right, especially in the loing term, is not a happy one.
If the firm is handed a budget and told to get on with it, there would be a direct conflict between operations and profitability with less activity and less investment = more profit.
One can almost expect volunteers (RNLI) and miliary SAR to put their lives on the line if they need to in exceptional circumstances, but can the same be expected of salaried employees of a commercial organisation? Would like to see the Health and Safety regulations!
Cannot see this being a vote winner either.
other than the exisiting civilian provided SAR aircraft you mean ? If the firm is handed a budget and told to get on with it, there would be a direct conflict between operations and profitability with less activity and less investment = more profit.
One can almost expect volunteers (RNLI) and miliary SAR to put their lives on the line if they need to in exceptional circumstances, but can the same be expected of salaried employees of a commercial organisation? Would like to see the Health and Safety regulations!
Cannot see this being a vote winner either.
the RNLI and MACA operations are covered by the same health and safety legislation as if the role was undertaken by a commercial organisation. Charities and volunteer workers are not exempt from H+S legislation and the military is not exempt from H+S legislation while operating in the UK and especially not when training or engaged on MACA taskings.
alangla said:
Something I've always wondered about the CHC/Bristow/Bond SAR operations - are the crews predominantly ex-military or civilians? If ex-military, presumably they're mainly recruited from ex-RAF or RN SAR personnel so what's going to happen to the availability of high-calibre crews if the military stops training?
Yes - due to the high cost of getting a rotary wing CPL/ATPL compared to fixed-wing, the majority of civilian SAR pilots are ex-mil. Military pilots finishing their service can get the groundschool part of their ATPL(H) part-funded by the MoD, so getting their civvy qualification on leaving is no problem. All military rotary-wing pilots still practice winch operations and SAR as part of their operational training (to get their wings), and practice these skills regularly on exercise and active operations, so the experienced aircrew will still be coming through the pipeline - there just won't be dedicated military SAR assets in the UK anymore.
As an aside, there are no dedicated RN SAR pilots - most have flown Mk.4 Sea King Commandos or MK.7 AEW (baggers) on ops before doing stints at 771NAS (The RN's SAR squadron).
Ayahuasca said:
On the financials, presumably a private SAR firm would need to obtain all of its resources commercially, and would not benefit from the economies of scale afforded by being part of a large military organisation.
Judging by just about every military procurement I've seen, that should save them a fortune then! 
Ayahuasca said:
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
The RNLI is fantastic and very well funded. All their kit is first class. SAR like that would be brilliant, much better than having to rely on ever declining government funding. It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
el stovey said:
Ayahuasca said:
How can this be A Good Thing?
It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
The RNLI is fantastic and very well funded. All their kit is first class. SAR like that would be brilliant, much better than having to rely on ever declining government funding. It will not be like the RNLI - crewed by brave volunteers, but run by a commercial organisation.
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