Who are the fools?
Discussion
I'm an average guy. I live with my wife in London in a house which we pay for ourselves. It's a nice house, but we work hard to pay the mortgage and - of course - this is paid after we pay our taxes.
Of late, I have become more and more aware of just how much this country is an 'Us and Them' environment. All housing-related, and three things have drawn my attention to it;
- Last night, visiting an old friend who had just been given a new council flat. Aforementioned old friend is the same age as us, but the idea of a regular job is not one she is familiar with; she's a part-time teaching assistant, part-time musician, part-time not-doing-much-at-all. Her new place is a large, attractive, two-bedroomed, new-build flat on the 7th floor of a purpose-built block with excellent views directly across a local park. The view of the London skyline is as good as I have ever seen. The council employed a removal company to move her in, and paid her a "relocation fee" to cover any costs she may have had to meet out-of-pocket. She lives on her own, and has a spare bedroom - not by choice, apparently the housing association said she had to have a two-bedroom place. She does pay rent, at around 30-40% of the market rate. Her housing contract says she is not allowed to take in a paying lodger, but she has been unofficially told that to do so is fine as long as she doesn't tell anyone. A lodger would very easily cover pretty much all of her rent. Oh, and in a year's time she is given 'right to acquire' - meaning she can buy it from the housing association at a hugely subsidised price.
- Hearing from another old friend about their planned move out of London. They made the most of their 'right to acquire' when they bought their four-bed council house from the council in 2005 (7 years ago). They paid £160k for it then. They have just signed contracts to sell it, for £800k. That's £640k profit in 7 years. Tax-free, of course, and will go nicely with their salaries as a doctor and teacher, respectively.
- Having read this article on PH, I eMailed a copy of it to my local councillor, asking what the local council is doing to prevent such goings-on. While it took him an age to reply, the guy has supplied me with replies from all the local housing associations. And the replies seem largely unconcerned about the problem - one of them says (and I quote) "Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We shall place a notice about it in our next newsletter, informing tenants that doing this is not permitted."
Am I naive to be amazed at the amount of 'free ride' people get from the state in this country? Am I wrong to be jealous of the vast sums spent on others, and angry that these sums are made up of my taxes? Is it wrong of me to resent friends who are given such a helping hand, knowing that the helping hand has dipped deeply into my pocket to make this possible?
Are we the fools in this country - paying our taxes simply so that favoured ones can have the things that we work hard for? How do we become one of those 'favoured ones', and become the beneficiaries of such a system rather than the fools who subsidise it?
Oli.
Of late, I have become more and more aware of just how much this country is an 'Us and Them' environment. All housing-related, and three things have drawn my attention to it;
- Last night, visiting an old friend who had just been given a new council flat. Aforementioned old friend is the same age as us, but the idea of a regular job is not one she is familiar with; she's a part-time teaching assistant, part-time musician, part-time not-doing-much-at-all. Her new place is a large, attractive, two-bedroomed, new-build flat on the 7th floor of a purpose-built block with excellent views directly across a local park. The view of the London skyline is as good as I have ever seen. The council employed a removal company to move her in, and paid her a "relocation fee" to cover any costs she may have had to meet out-of-pocket. She lives on her own, and has a spare bedroom - not by choice, apparently the housing association said she had to have a two-bedroom place. She does pay rent, at around 30-40% of the market rate. Her housing contract says she is not allowed to take in a paying lodger, but she has been unofficially told that to do so is fine as long as she doesn't tell anyone. A lodger would very easily cover pretty much all of her rent. Oh, and in a year's time she is given 'right to acquire' - meaning she can buy it from the housing association at a hugely subsidised price.
- Hearing from another old friend about their planned move out of London. They made the most of their 'right to acquire' when they bought their four-bed council house from the council in 2005 (7 years ago). They paid £160k for it then. They have just signed contracts to sell it, for £800k. That's £640k profit in 7 years. Tax-free, of course, and will go nicely with their salaries as a doctor and teacher, respectively.
- Having read this article on PH, I eMailed a copy of it to my local councillor, asking what the local council is doing to prevent such goings-on. While it took him an age to reply, the guy has supplied me with replies from all the local housing associations. And the replies seem largely unconcerned about the problem - one of them says (and I quote) "Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We shall place a notice about it in our next newsletter, informing tenants that doing this is not permitted."
Am I naive to be amazed at the amount of 'free ride' people get from the state in this country? Am I wrong to be jealous of the vast sums spent on others, and angry that these sums are made up of my taxes? Is it wrong of me to resent friends who are given such a helping hand, knowing that the helping hand has dipped deeply into my pocket to make this possible?
Are we the fools in this country - paying our taxes simply so that favoured ones can have the things that we work hard for? How do we become one of those 'favoured ones', and become the beneficiaries of such a system rather than the fools who subsidise it?
Oli.
zcacogp said:
Are we the fools in this country - paying our taxes simply so that favoured ones can have the things that we work hard for? How do we become one of those 'favoured ones', and become the beneficiaries of such a system rather than the fools who subsidise it?
Oli.
Quite simply yes. Why do you think that all those with enough money to avoid paying tax do so. I work in the taxation planning sector and the amount of money people spend to ensure their taxation rates are as efficient as possible are incredible. Although, I can see why.Oli.
Unfortunately, it has become the case in the UK that there is no reason to do anything by the book or off of your own back. It is easy to lie, cheat and steal your way through and then work the legal system in your favour.
Chris
Two things:
1. What area has 4 bed council homes that were only £300k in 2005??
2. It is a ridiculous idea that people who clearly cannot afford to pay for their own housing then get to buy at a huge discount to the market and the. Get to sell at market rates without having to repay any of the rental subsidy or purchase discount.
Absolutely criminal abuse of low paid taxpayers who don't happen to live in London.
1. What area has 4 bed council homes that were only £300k in 2005??
2. It is a ridiculous idea that people who clearly cannot afford to pay for their own housing then get to buy at a huge discount to the market and the. Get to sell at market rates without having to repay any of the rental subsidy or purchase discount.
Absolutely criminal abuse of low paid taxpayers who don't happen to live in London.
Well when I was growing up we struggled in a s**y cold house because my parents couldn't afford double glazing. We had a s**y old kitchen and boiler because my parents couldn't afford new ones. Both parents worked full time and I worked at weekends to get some money in too.
However, it delighted us that the people across the road didn't need to work as they had managed to produce brats by different "fathers", and as a result they appeared to get a new kitchen, double glazing and all sorts of stuff dealt with for them by the council (including a new boiler because their one was "old" - it still worked though).
Makes it all worthwhile working.....
However, it delighted us that the people across the road didn't need to work as they had managed to produce brats by different "fathers", and as a result they appeared to get a new kitchen, double glazing and all sorts of stuff dealt with for them by the council (including a new boiler because their one was "old" - it still worked though).
Makes it all worthwhile working.....
Despite being a bit of a socialist I'm quite surprised that a part time teaching assistant/musician needs to live in or near the city or indeed that this is available.
My other point is that appearances can be deceiving without knowing someone's complete financial situation. There are a lot of folks out there who are living for today on money perpetually borrowed from tomorrow. Of course when they hit their 50's and their incomes start to drop their profligate lifestyle also comes to an abrupt end. You just can't tell which is which either.
My other point is that appearances can be deceiving without knowing someone's complete financial situation. There are a lot of folks out there who are living for today on money perpetually borrowed from tomorrow. Of course when they hit their 50's and their incomes start to drop their profligate lifestyle also comes to an abrupt end. You just can't tell which is which either.
toohuge said:
Unfortunately, it has become the case in the UK that there is no reason to do anything by the book or off of your own back. It is easy to lie, cheat and steal your way through and then work the legal system in your favour.
Chris
It's been like this since the dawn of time. Chris
An American friend sent me a picture of three mangy mutts and this text:
American friend said:
This morning I went to sign my dogs up for welfare. At first the lady said,
"Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare." So I explained to her that my dogs
are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no
clue who their Daddies are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with
housing and medical care. So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes
to qualify. My dogs get their first checks Friday.
Wow!,,, this is a great country.
"Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare." So I explained to her that my dogs
are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no
clue who their Daddies are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with
housing and medical care. So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes
to qualify. My dogs get their first checks Friday.
Wow!,,, this is a great country.
motco said:
An American friend sent me a picture of three mangy mutts and this text:
American friend said:
This morning I went to sign my dogs up for welfare. At first the lady said,
"Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare." So I explained to her that my dogs
are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no
clue who their Daddies are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with
housing and medical care. So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes
to qualify. My dogs get their first checks Friday.
Wow!,,, this is a great country.
"Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare." So I explained to her that my dogs
are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no
clue who their Daddies are. They expect me to feed them, provide them with
housing and medical care. So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes
to qualify. My dogs get their first checks Friday.
Wow!,,, this is a great country.
Surely the issue with the housing market is the obsession with the 'Housing Ladder' in the UK.
Of course it must have been great in the 70s/80s in London and the SE when you could be a 3-bed semi for 3 times a 'normal' income that in 2012 is maybe worth 10-12 times the income of the person living there. Hence, people living in properties wildly beyond their level of income.
Maybe houses should be seen as a 'home' rather than a way to make 'money'......'money' that has perpetuated the increase in house prices and giving people a false sense of what they can actually afford.
Don't get me started on the 'Right to Buy'.....
Of course it must have been great in the 70s/80s in London and the SE when you could be a 3-bed semi for 3 times a 'normal' income that in 2012 is maybe worth 10-12 times the income of the person living there. Hence, people living in properties wildly beyond their level of income.
Maybe houses should be seen as a 'home' rather than a way to make 'money'......'money' that has perpetuated the increase in house prices and giving people a false sense of what they can actually afford.
Don't get me started on the 'Right to Buy'.....
Without housing benefit putting a floor on rental prices 30 to 40% probably would be the market rate. Govt only needs to subsidize her because it bids up costs in the 'other' part of the rental market.
And people 'paying' there own way through mortgages get low mortgage rates subsidized by savers, that bear no relation to inflation. The inflation tax bothers me more than the £20bn or so housing benefit. If you have a mortgage, your'e being subsidized too, you just dont realize it.
I'm not a house owner OR a 'social' tenant so I'm full on screwed. Intend to move to Germany within the next couple of years where rents are actually reasonable.
As far as im concerned, until govt lets building land prices fall to level comparable to other countries, or what it was 15 years ago by loosening its monopoly on planning permissions, it has a duty to shelter people, it forced the high cost in the first place.
Many social tenants would happily pay for their own shelter if govt didnt force the cost up by creating an artificial scarcity of building land.
And people 'paying' there own way through mortgages get low mortgage rates subsidized by savers, that bear no relation to inflation. The inflation tax bothers me more than the £20bn or so housing benefit. If you have a mortgage, your'e being subsidized too, you just dont realize it.
I'm not a house owner OR a 'social' tenant so I'm full on screwed. Intend to move to Germany within the next couple of years where rents are actually reasonable.
As far as im concerned, until govt lets building land prices fall to level comparable to other countries, or what it was 15 years ago by loosening its monopoly on planning permissions, it has a duty to shelter people, it forced the high cost in the first place.
Many social tenants would happily pay for their own shelter if govt didnt force the cost up by creating an artificial scarcity of building land.
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