Understanding Islam
Discussion
Whenever a thread involving religion, especially Islam, comes along it normally follows the same path of mad arguments before being locked. I am going to try(seriously) to lay this out so as to allow future discussions/debates to occur with less hostility. Here goes the ole' school try.
I spent 4 hours Wednesday with a man who lectures to law enforcement on the "understanding of Islam". I came away with far more clarity on the issue than with any previous encounter with "learned" people.
I will not pound everyone with the full Monty on the opening post, so here is a brief foray. To begin with, Islam (Islam being the religion; meaning "To submit to Allah)is practiced by Muslims (one who submits). Although Arab-centric in its roots, most Muslims reside in Indonesia, followed by India. Now that the definitions and geography one-liner is over, the meat of the issue.
The Quran alone is not the Muslims's sole guide. As I understand it, the Quran, Sharia Law, and the Al Hadeth(traditions)together comprise the "way" in which a Muslim should live. The Quran is a collection of 114 revelations that Muhammed recieved. The revelations that seem to call for the death of all non-believers, etc. is actually not the case, IMO. In the Quran, entries, such as 9:5 are often pointed to as evidence that Muslims wish to kill all non-Muslims. IMO, the truth is that that revelation was used by Muhammed as a response to a certain group (Jews in this case) breaking a particular treaty at some point in history. It was a time and issue-specific entry not meant to be adhered to in perpetuity. Others such as 22:39 and 52:17 that promises heaven if one dies fighting for Allah are also time and issue-specific as they were recruiting tools to increase numbers against the Meccans. Radical Muslims do use these verses to incite violence today. It is estimated that approximately 1% of the estimated 2.8 billion Muslims are "radical" or "militant". A formidable number to be certain, but still 1%. The bottom line is that the Quran does not instruct Muslims today to kill non-Muslims.
Interestly, Muhammed was persecuted by the Meccans for his part in removing representation of all "Gods" from the Ka'bah in favor of just one. The Ka'bah a place where many travelled to pay homage to their Gods. By removing them, only in favor of Allah, Muhammed put a huge dent into tourism. This eventually caused him to flee Mecca (after 13 years) to Yathrib, now Medina (meaning "City of the Prophet"). There he literally became the Mayor of the city and wrote the "Ummah", a type of constitution for Medina. Suprising to many, his Ummah promoted religious freedom, no violence, etc. He even worked to give women more rights. Muhammed was apparently quite the progressive in his day.
Many scholars agree that Muhammed's biggest mistake was not naming a successor of some type before his death at 62. This caused a vacuum in the faith that gave rise to the Shias and Sunnis of today. With this, many of the repressive elements of Islam developed; they did not come from Muhammed. To be honest, much of what many despise about Islam is not really Islam but a tradition of a particular region.
Approximately 70% of the Bible and the Quran are similar in content and beliefs. The difference being that Christians believe Jesus is the Savior, Jews believe the Savior is yet to come, and Muslims follow Muhammed. Christians get into Heaven by the Grace of Jesus, Jews by believing in God, and Muslims by their deeds on Earth. Muslims see Jesus as the 6th of 7 prophets with Muhammed being the 7th. I hope that in our future debates, we can focus on those differences and not the other things that are either not true or only pertain to the 1% of radicals.
There is a lot more detail to my study but those are some highlights. Please understand that I am not being apologetic to Islam, simply wanting us to work from a baseline of truth as oppossed to falsehoods and speculation that lead to locked threads. I believe in the fight against the 1% and the condemnation of that group by the other 99% of Muslims.
As I stated, there is more to this and I will be happy to offer up more details in smaller bites. Now, you can all give me the "no shyte Sherlock", correct my facts, disagree with me, or tell me to f
k off! I am just trying to forge forward here. 
I spent 4 hours Wednesday with a man who lectures to law enforcement on the "understanding of Islam". I came away with far more clarity on the issue than with any previous encounter with "learned" people.
I will not pound everyone with the full Monty on the opening post, so here is a brief foray. To begin with, Islam (Islam being the religion; meaning "To submit to Allah)is practiced by Muslims (one who submits). Although Arab-centric in its roots, most Muslims reside in Indonesia, followed by India. Now that the definitions and geography one-liner is over, the meat of the issue.
The Quran alone is not the Muslims's sole guide. As I understand it, the Quran, Sharia Law, and the Al Hadeth(traditions)together comprise the "way" in which a Muslim should live. The Quran is a collection of 114 revelations that Muhammed recieved. The revelations that seem to call for the death of all non-believers, etc. is actually not the case, IMO. In the Quran, entries, such as 9:5 are often pointed to as evidence that Muslims wish to kill all non-Muslims. IMO, the truth is that that revelation was used by Muhammed as a response to a certain group (Jews in this case) breaking a particular treaty at some point in history. It was a time and issue-specific entry not meant to be adhered to in perpetuity. Others such as 22:39 and 52:17 that promises heaven if one dies fighting for Allah are also time and issue-specific as they were recruiting tools to increase numbers against the Meccans. Radical Muslims do use these verses to incite violence today. It is estimated that approximately 1% of the estimated 2.8 billion Muslims are "radical" or "militant". A formidable number to be certain, but still 1%. The bottom line is that the Quran does not instruct Muslims today to kill non-Muslims.
Interestly, Muhammed was persecuted by the Meccans for his part in removing representation of all "Gods" from the Ka'bah in favor of just one. The Ka'bah a place where many travelled to pay homage to their Gods. By removing them, only in favor of Allah, Muhammed put a huge dent into tourism. This eventually caused him to flee Mecca (after 13 years) to Yathrib, now Medina (meaning "City of the Prophet"). There he literally became the Mayor of the city and wrote the "Ummah", a type of constitution for Medina. Suprising to many, his Ummah promoted religious freedom, no violence, etc. He even worked to give women more rights. Muhammed was apparently quite the progressive in his day.
Many scholars agree that Muhammed's biggest mistake was not naming a successor of some type before his death at 62. This caused a vacuum in the faith that gave rise to the Shias and Sunnis of today. With this, many of the repressive elements of Islam developed; they did not come from Muhammed. To be honest, much of what many despise about Islam is not really Islam but a tradition of a particular region.
Approximately 70% of the Bible and the Quran are similar in content and beliefs. The difference being that Christians believe Jesus is the Savior, Jews believe the Savior is yet to come, and Muslims follow Muhammed. Christians get into Heaven by the Grace of Jesus, Jews by believing in God, and Muslims by their deeds on Earth. Muslims see Jesus as the 6th of 7 prophets with Muhammed being the 7th. I hope that in our future debates, we can focus on those differences and not the other things that are either not true or only pertain to the 1% of radicals.
There is a lot more detail to my study but those are some highlights. Please understand that I am not being apologetic to Islam, simply wanting us to work from a baseline of truth as oppossed to falsehoods and speculation that lead to locked threads. I believe in the fight against the 1% and the condemnation of that group by the other 99% of Muslims.
As I stated, there is more to this and I will be happy to offer up more details in smaller bites. Now, you can all give me the "no shyte Sherlock", correct my facts, disagree with me, or tell me to f
k off! I am just trying to forge forward here. Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 11th May 16:55
alock said:
Jimbeaux said:
It is estimated that approximately 1% of Muslims are "radical" or "militant". That would equate to approximately 130 million, a formidable number to be certain, but still 1%.
So there are 13 billion Muslims in the world?
Sounds like the Democratic Party in Chicago. 
Jimbeaux said:
alock said:
Jimbeaux said:
It is estimated that approximately 1% of Muslims are "radical" or "militant". That would equate to approximately 130 million, a formidable number to be certain, but still 1%.
So there are 13 billion Muslims in the world?Jimbeaux said:
Muhammed ... became the Mayor of the city and wrote the "Ummah", a type of constitution for Medina.
Is this it?In before the lock
R60EST said:
The YouTube comments are a treat aren't they..."Alla is the devil. All you goatraping desert-apes are food for the demons when you die. All muslims have mortal spirits. Your devil souls will be eaten by demons."
Why just paste links? Can't you debate yourself? Lots of stupid stuff to be found on YouTube, I rather hear personal opinions...
If you want to find out about Islam be sure not to ask the US Army.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18032968
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18032968
caraddict said:
R60EST said:
The YouTube comments are a treat aren't they..."Alla is the devil. All you goatraping desert-apes are food for the demons when you die. All muslims have mortal spirits. Your devil souls will be eaten by demons."
Why just paste links? Can't you debate yourself? Lots of stupid stuff to be found on YouTube, I rather hear personal opinions...
I have no interest in Islam , or any other religion for that matter. I'm not suggesting that being religious is a bad thing , it's a personal choice and something which should not be forced on others.
Is the difference something more akin to the Eastern World against the Western (or developed) World? Islam is perhaps just a tangible that draws a line between the two sides, but not the reason why they are at odds.
It stands to reason that those regions that haven't been able to take full advantage of the developed world may be the places where the feeling of unrest comes from. The feeling of injustice may be so deep rooted, that even when people migrate into the developed world from those areas, they maintain their dislike and distrust of it.
In my eyes, there seem too many stretches of the imagination away from what Islam is supposed to represent to really believe religion is the main driver for the poor relations.
It stands to reason that those regions that haven't been able to take full advantage of the developed world may be the places where the feeling of unrest comes from. The feeling of injustice may be so deep rooted, that even when people migrate into the developed world from those areas, they maintain their dislike and distrust of it.
In my eyes, there seem too many stretches of the imagination away from what Islam is supposed to represent to really believe religion is the main driver for the poor relations.
s1962a said:
Jimbeaux said:
alock said:
Jimbeaux said:
It is estimated that approximately 1% of Muslims are "radical" or "militant". That would equate to approximately 130 million, a formidable number to be certain, but still 1%.
So there are 13 billion Muslims in the world?
This information comes from a survey carried out by The Daily Mail. Did you know there are 9 billion muslims living in your street right now, and that over 600% of them are terrorists?
s1962a said:
Jimbeaux said:
alock said:
Jimbeaux said:
It is estimated that approximately 1% of Muslims are "radical" or "militant". That would equate to approximately 130 million, a formidable number to be certain, but still 1%.
So there are 13 billion Muslims in the world? Islam is the fastest growing religion and the second largest in numbers behind Chritianity.rohrl said:
If you want to find out about Islam be sure not to ask the US Army.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18032968
That was a voluntary course at a Joint forces college, not the US Army. Their official doctrine is taught at West Point or the Command College. BTW, it was the Army that killed it. Get your facts straight.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18032968
10 Pence Short said:
Is the difference something more akin to the Eastern World against the Western (or developed) World? Islam is perhaps just a tangible that draws a line between the two sides, but not the reason why they are at odds.
It stands to reason that those regions that haven't been able to take full advantage of the developed world may be the places where the feeling of unrest comes from. The feeling of injustice may be so deep rooted, that even when people migrate into the developed world from those areas, they maintain their dislike and distrust of it.
In my eyes, there seem too many stretches of the imagination away from what Islam is supposed to represent to really believe religion is the main driver for the poor relations.
There is a lot of truth in that IMO. It stands to reason that those regions that haven't been able to take full advantage of the developed world may be the places where the feeling of unrest comes from. The feeling of injustice may be so deep rooted, that even when people migrate into the developed world from those areas, they maintain their dislike and distrust of it.
In my eyes, there seem too many stretches of the imagination away from what Islam is supposed to represent to really believe religion is the main driver for the poor relations.
EDLT said:
s1962a said:
Jimbeaux said:
alock said:
Jimbeaux said:
It is estimated that approximately 1% of Muslims are "radical" or "militant". That would equate to approximately 130 million, a formidable number to be certain, but still 1%.
So there are 13 billion Muslims in the world?This information comes from a survey carried out by The Daily Mail. Did you know there are 9 billion muslims living in your street right now, and that over 600% of them are terrorists?
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