Atheists: You're not as rational as you think

[Joey Ramone]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/20...

Interesting little piece from Professor Dom Johnson. Interesting guy. Two PhDs, one in International Relations (he's a Professor at the Politics department at Oxford) and one in Evolutionary biology (he initially started out as a Zoologist)

Anyway, thoughts (if any)?

[jmorgan]

Cobblers.

And pass the popcorn.

Edit, that Proff, he from Miami?

Edited by jmorgan on Wednesday 20th December 07:18

[grumbledoak]

Clickbait.

[hondafanatic]

grumbledoak said:

Clickbait.

My thought too.

I'm an atheist. Do I say things like 'touch wood"? (insert phnarr here) Yep. Do I mean it? Nope. Do I believe in karma? Nope. Do I hope superstitious believes? Nope. Do I wish people good luck? Yep. I treat it as a simple gesture...I don't believe in luck...I'm just being polite. So if I was questioned if I'm an atheist, and then asked if I say some of those phrases then I'd say yes and yes. Do I belive in those phrases? Nope.

Clickbait.

[smn159]

He's saying that humans tend to attribute supernatural causes to things (touch wood, avoid the number 13, karma...), even when they don't have traditional religious views.

That's nothing new and it does nothing to suggest that an atheist viewpoint isn't a rational one. I'd suggest that anyone who describes themselves as an atheist is probably less susceptible than most to superstition.

[anonymous-user]

Joey Ramone said:

Anyway, thoughts (if any)?

So, because people believe in luck, or another superstition... they can't be a atheist? Right...

[Joey Ramone]

Why is it cobblers/clickbait? He's simply pointing out (as an atheist himself) that atheists are subject to the same sorts of irrationalities in the wider scheme of things (belief in cause and effect when it comes to forms of behaviour, and a belief in unacountable universal forces that deliver punishment when that behaviour transgresses certain boundaries) as those who believe in some sort of deity

He also makes the point that these behaviours are advantageous for the species, as they prevent a rapid spiral into naked self-interest.

[smn159]

Joey Ramone said:

...these behaviours are advantageous for the species, as they prevent a rapid spiral into naked self-interest.

Any evidence for that?

[Joey Ramone]

The fact that you, and and the vast majority of others around you, don't simply do whatever the fk that you want in life.

A suppression of naked self interest is essentially how a society functions

[Kawasicki]

Naked self interest is not advantageous from an evolutionary point of view. Humans are social animals, whether atheist or not.

[Joey Ramone]

AlrightYouns said:

So, because people believe in luck, or another superstition... they can't be a atheist? Right...

He wasn't saying anything of the sort

His argument is that atheists are not, in the wider scheme of things, more rational than those who believe in God. That they still act (albeit unconsciously) in accordance with the belief that their actions are subject to a form of judgement on a grander scale.

[jmorgan]

Joey Ramone said:

Why is it cobblers/clickbait? He's simply pointing out (as an atheist himself) that atheists are subject to the same sorts of irrationalities in the wider scheme of things (belief in cause and effect when it comes to forms of behaviour, and a belief in unacountable universal forces that deliver punishment when that behaviour transgresses certain boundaries) as those who believe in some sort of deity

He also makes the point that these behaviours are advantageous for the species, as they prevent a rapid spiral into naked self-interest.

OK, bit harsh, but from my point of view. The only reason I do not walk under ladders is because it makes sense. And what is the demon doing on the fellas shoulder....

[Joey Ramone]

hondafanatic said:

My thought too.

I'm an atheist. Do I say things like 'touch wood"? (insert phnarr here) Yep. Do I mean it? Nope. Do I believe in karma? Nope. Do I hope superstitious believes? Nope. Do I wish people good luck? Yep. I treat it as a simple gesture...I don't believe in luck...I'm just being polite. So if I was questioned if I'm an atheist, and then asked if I say some of those phrases then I'd say yes and yes. Do I belive in those phrases? Nope.

Clickbait.

But do you function as a polite member of society because a) you are simply a good chap who wouldn't do anyone any harm and always helps old ladies across the road or b) because you your behaviours are guided by the nagging yet quite powerful feeling that behaving badly in life will somehow have unpleasant consequences later down the line?

[hondafanatic]

Joey Ramone said:

hondafanatic said:

My thought too.

I'm an atheist. Do I say things like 'touch wood"? (insert phnarr here) Yep. Do I mean it? Nope. Do I believe in karma? Nope. Do I hope superstitious believes? Nope. Do I wish people good luck? Yep. I treat it as a simple gesture...I don't believe in luck...I'm just being polite. So if I was questioned if I'm an atheist, and then asked if I say some of those phrases then I'd say yes and yes. Do I belive in those phrases? Nope.

Clickbait.

But do you function as a polite member of society because a) you are simply a good chap who wouldn't do anyone any harm and always helps old ladies across the road or b) because you your behaviours are guided by the nagging yet quite powerful feeling that behaving badly in life will somehow have unpleasant consequences later down the line?

Mainly because I don't believe in a diety that will forgive my sins so I try my best to get it right first time.

I have never found any added value in my day by being unthoughtful/hurtful to people but I have found from experience that being nice to people makes the day easier for me and them.

So that'll be option a) please bob.

[durbster]

A lot of this stuff is simply ingrained in our culture so it's a stretch to say it necessarily represents our position. If I say "jesus christ" after reading one of Trump's tweets, it doesn't mean I'm religious, it's just a learned exclamation.

If anyone is interested in this, the podcast You Are Not So Smart explores this sort of thing and how often we form our opinions based on an irrational basis - no matter how rational we think we are.

It's well worth a listen and might cause you to rethink a few things, particularly when reading things online.

https://youarenotsosmart.com

[Joey Ramone]

hondafanatic said:

Mainly because I don't believe in a diety that will forgive my sins so I try my best to get it right first time.

I have never found any added value in my day by being unthoughtful/hurtful to people but I have found from experience that being nice to people makes the day easier for me and them.

So that'll be option a) please bob.

That's fine. But I'll freely admit that I often ponder potential courses of action on the basis that that which does other people the most harm (and I don't necessarily mean physical. Maybe emotional, or financial) is often most likely to deliver me harm in return, somehow, at some undefined point.

It's an irrational way of thinking but I certainly fall prey to it.

[Halmyre]

"Atheists pride themselves on being rational and drawing their knowledge from the world of facts."

I thought atheism was non-belief in a deity? As a staunch atheist I am nevertheless pretty irrational at times. And I'm willing to bet that some flat-earthers or 911 or moon-landing conspiracists are also atheists.

Alternatively, a lot of theists are happy to drawing their knowledge from the world of facts.

In summary: article is a load of pish.

[hondafanatic]

Joey Ramone said:

hondafanatic said:

Mainly because I don't believe in a diety that will forgive my sins so I try my best to get it right first time.

I have never found any added value in my day by being unthoughtful/hurtful to people but I have found from experience that being nice to people makes the day easier for me and them.

So that'll be option a) please bob.

That's fine. But I'll freely admit that I often ponder potential courses of action on the basis that that which does other people the most harm (and I don't necessarily mean physical. Maybe emotional, or financial) is often most likely to deliver me harm in return, somehow, at some undefined point.

It's an irrational way of thinking but I certainly fall prey to it.

You say that like it's a bad thing... all I read was 'I think ahead and of actions and consequnces and try to do the right thing'.

[Joey Ramone]

hondafanatic said:

You say that like it's a bad thing... all I read was 'I think ahead and of actions and consequnces and try to do the right thing'.

Point being that not all of your actions in that respect are conscious. And how have you decided on what is the 'right thing' to do? Because you are in inherently moral creature? Because your behaviours have been socially constructed? Or because your belief in the 'right thing' is guided by a subconscious fear of some sort of likely negative consequence if you do the wrong thing?

[GAjon]

Joey Ramone said:

Interesting little piece from Professor Dom Johnson. Interesting guy. Two PhDs, one in International Relations (he's a Professor at the Politics department at Oxford) and one in Evolutionary biology (he initially started out as a Zoologist)

Anyway, thoughts (if any)?

Doesn’t matter if he’s got his 25mtr breast stroke or a boys scout hat with a bullethole in, he doesn’t know any better than anyone else.