World war 2...... If the English channel hadn't existed...

[Wacky Racer]

I'll open this up for discussion:-

Sometimes, I get rather irritated when the French are lambasted for surrendering to the German army in a matter of weeks, remember they were up against Hitler's well oiled fighting machine.

So, Hypothetically, if there was no English channel, and Hitler's troops and tanks had steamrollered through Kent and on to London, how would the war have panned out, bearing in mind we were really unprepared, yes I am sure eventually Germany would have been defeated when America and Russia got involved, but it has often been said over the centuries the channel has "saved" us, being an island....

[aeropilot]

Wacky Racer said:

So, Hypothetically, if there was no English channel, and Hitler's troops and tanks had steamrollered through Kent and on to London, how would the war have panned out.

Very differently, as Germany would have then gained access to much of the British Empires resources to fuel its main aim of getting rid of Stalin, plus control of the Royal Navy, and control of the Suez canal.

That small stretch of water (and the still then might of the RN) coupled with the Wehrmacht not being designed and equipped for amphibious invasion was a huge factor in the eventual outcome of the war.

[Coolbanana]

Wacky Racer said:

I'll open this up for discussion:-

Sometimes, I get rather irritated when the French are lambasted for surrendering to the German army in a matter of weeks, remember they were up against Hitler's well oiled fighting machine.

So, Hypothetically, if there was no English channel, and Hitler's troops and tanks had steamrollered through Kent and on to London, how would the war have panned out, bearing in mind we were really unprepared, yes I am sure eventually Germany would have been defeated when America and Russia got involved, but it has often been said over the centuries the channel has "saved" us, being an island....

Germany had the most powerful land army in Europe in WW2 with very good air support. Britain had the largest Navy and the benefit of being an island. As such, Britain had the advantage of using her Navy and her own considerable Airforce as well as some time to organise thanks to the rest of Europe absorbing German Army logistics.

If there had been a large land mass for the German Army to cross and not a Channel, then Britain would have succumbed to Hitler's War Machine, no doubt about it. In fact, had the American's not stepped in, Britain would have been defeated regardless. It would have just taken a bit longer. GB was on the brink when the Americans joined.

It is true to commend the magnificent spirit in GB during WW2 and the great victories it accomplished, but the Germans lost not because of the British so much as because of a leader who made terrible tactical errors in going after Russia and declaring war on the USA. If Hitler had allowed his Generals to fight WW2 and not his Nazi Party, GB would not have survived and the World may have become a very different place.

[mcdjl]

On the basis that the British lost around 68,000 troops and a lot of weapons at Dunkirk we clearly weren't doing any differently to the French in facing up to the German army. So in short i think they would have rolled through England until they came up against the Welsh/Scottish mountains.
To put that in context, about 330,000 British troops were rescued from Dunkirk, in follow up evacuations about another 300,000 British and a further 200,000 french were evacuated from other ports. Further context: the current British army is 81,000.
All info from Wikipedia.

[Pat H]

I suppose that a government in exile would have been established in the United States, or perhaps one of the Dominions and that the RN would have largely survived to fight alongside the other Allies.

If we assume that the US would still have joined the fray in 1941, the I suspect the eventual outcome of the war would have been following an invasion through Sicily and Italy.

Very interesting.

[Zirconia]

H takes the UK, help from the US will not get through the u boat blockage to the USSR and U boats run free off the US coast when Japan kicks off.

Germany free to concentrate on Russia. Toss a coin, if Russia wins we are now speaking Russian along with the rest of europe, Germany wins, we speak German. US sort out Japan but no way can it help Europe with HMS UK sunk, and there will be a more worrying cold war. What with all that rocket technology in on nations grasp.

[Eric Mc]

One of the big questions that would have arisen if the UK had been knocked out of the war is, how would the US have been able to conduct any sort of strategic bombing campaign against Germany. The bomber aircraft in use in 1941 to 1945 did not have the capability to operate across the Atlantic. Perhaps bases in Africa might have been used.

It was because of the possibility that the UK might pull out of the war that the Convair B-36 programme was instigated - a true trans Atlantic bomber. However, with that scenario not happening, the B-36 was put on ice - until it became obvious towards the end of the war that a new threat, the Soviet Union, would probably emerge - and then the B-36 programme was revived.

Also, as a native of Ireland, I'm always curious as to what might have happened if the UK had packed it in (sued for peace or been occupied). My hunch is that Ireland would have either been occupied too or arranged some terms with Germany.

[Stuart70]

1.1m troops were conscripted to the British army by the end of 1939 (BBC: People’s War)

Hence the comparison with the standing army of 81k is not terribly meaningful.

[TurboHatchback]

We would have been steamrollered in a matter of days or weeks. The US would not have been able to use the UK as a giant airbase for the strategic bombing campaign nor a launch pad for opening the second front in Europe so would have stayed out of the war in Europe. Hitler would probably have broken the Soviet Union and attained an unassailable position in Europe, completed his goals of ethnic cleansing and repopulation and from then on who knows. The war in the pacific would have gone much the same way but faster due to the US not splitting its resources on two fronts (three really with lend lease support).

Of course it's a slightly irrelevant case because if we were connected to france via a fairly limited land bridge it would have become one of the most fortified borders in history over time, we would not have developed as a naval power in the same way and quite possible wouldn't have even ended up as a separate nation.

[menguin]

It's an impossible question to answer since if there was a land bridge between the UK and mainland Europe then every decision made by the UK in the preceding 500+ years would have been different. Would we have had such a large navy? Would we have constructed our own Maginot line, this time without a big gaping hole around Belgium?

[aeropilot]

Zirconia said:

H takes the UK, help from the US will not get through the u boat blockage to the USSR and U boats run free off the US coast when Japan kicks off.

Germany free to concentrate on Russia. Toss a coin, if Russia wins we are now speaking Russian along with the rest of europe, Germany wins, we speak German. US sort out Japan but no way can it help Europe with HMS UK sunk

This in a nutshell.

With British Isles under German occupation, there would have been no invasion of mainland Europe, and its almost certain Germany would have defeated USSR as well, as post war research has shown that USSR only survived because of UK/USA war aid to the USSR, in combination with UK/USA attacks and bombing from UK, which would not have been forthcoming if Britain was under Nazi occupation.

[gazza285]

aeropilot said:

Very differently, as Germany would have then gained access to much of the British Empires resources to fuel its main aim of getting rid of Stalin, plus control of the Royal Navy, and control of the Suez canal.

I cannot see the rest of the Empire just rolling over to German control if the mainland fell, likewise the Navy, the British ships would have buggered off somewhere more friendly and carried on the fight, much like the Free French Naval Force did.

[aeropilot]

gazza285 said:

aeropilot said:

Very differently, as Germany would have then gained access to much of the British Empires resources to fuel its main aim of getting rid of Stalin, plus control of the Royal Navy, and control of the Suez canal.

I cannot see the rest of the Empire just rolling over to German control if the mainland fell, likewise the Navy, the British ships would have buggered off somewhere more friendly and carried on the fight, much like the Free French Naval Force did.

Yes, Canada, Austrailia, South Africa etc., would have likely joined USA as well, for the Pacific and maybe defended what they could, but British interests in the Med area and North Africa would have been swept up by the Germans and Italians and no way would the main Dominion nations been able to retake the British Isles, even with USA support had it been forthcoming. Don't forget we couldn't even make a decent defense of Singapore in 1941.


Sure, the RN would have escaped and carried on probably from Canada, Aus and the Caribbean etc. but retaking the British Isles would have been a tough ask.

[Zirconia]

aeropilot said:

Zirconia said:

H takes the UK, help from the US will not get through the u boat blockage to the USSR and U boats run free off the US coast when Japan kicks off.

Germany free to concentrate on Russia. Toss a coin, if Russia wins we are now speaking Russian along with the rest of europe, Germany wins, we speak German. US sort out Japan but no way can it help Europe with HMS UK sunk

This in a nutshell.

With British Isles under German occupation, there would have been no invasion of mainland Europe, and its almost certain Germany would have defeated USSR as well, as post war research has shown that USSR only survived because of UK/USA war aid to the USSR, in combination with UK/USA attacks and bombing from UK, which would not have been forthcoming if Britain was under Nazi occupation.

Something else I think that slips in under the rdar.
Operation Drum Beat showed how un prepared the US was for U boats. Even when told the best course of action, they would not turn off the city lights for example that was silhouetting the merchant vessel making it easy to sink. The tipping point was when the UK and US were able to tackle the U boat and make the tonnage merchants ships built vs U boats sunk, the former out doing the latter. Think the US built one liberty ship in a number of days at one point.

Problem is if Hiter now has access to all the ports and facilities a major sea power, the U boat production goes up, possible grab of UK surface ships, major ports and ship building facilities, the Atlantic becomes a no go area for the US if war is declared on them.

[Earthdweller]

aeropilot said:

Wacky Racer said:

So, Hypothetically, if there was no English channel, and Hitler's troops and tanks had steamrollered through Kent and on to London, how would the war have panned out.

Very differently, as Germany would have then gained access to much of the British Empires resources to fuel its main aim of getting rid of Stalin, plus control of the Royal Navy, and control of the Suez canal.

That small stretch of water (and the still then might of the RN) coupled with the Wehrmacht not being designed and equipped for amphibious invasion was a huge factor in the eventual outcome of the war.

I disagree with much of your reply

The Empire would have remained as the powerhouse it was and not under Nazi control

The RN would have been redeployed to the US East Coast or other Empire bases

The RAF likewise

The Govt/Royals would also have left

The British landforces in the UK would mostly be lost, but they were only a very small number of the total Empire land forces

But, I’d say that the strategy of the BEF would have been very different if the UK/FR border was a field rather than a large moat

Remember, whilst small it was a highly effective professional Army

I don’t think they would have advanced as they did or followed the French plan, and hence not been trapped by the collapse of the line to their right. The orientation would have been on protecting the UK border not advancing into Belgium

Certainly the battle would have been very different

And there is no way that the Nazi’s would have automatically gained Egypt or India or Australia

Hitler, didn’t want war with Britain and there may have been a negotiated settlement.

It certainly not conclusive that the war would have been lost

It may even have hastened the US into the War

Edited by Earthdweller on Tuesday 10th September 11:06

[Eric Mc]

Read "Fatherland" by Robert Harris.

[FourWheelDrift]

If the channel didn't exist we would have had a more powerful and bigger standing army too, to keep the French in check for starters.

[Eric Mc]

That's why I find these "What if" type discussions rather pointless. What you are actually saying is that "What if the ice age hadn't ended?".

[TEKNOPUG]

FourWheelDrift said:

If the channel didn't exist we would have had a more powerful and bigger standing army too, to keep the French in check for starters.

This.

No channel means we would have ploughed the resources of the richest country in the world for the previous 50 years into a huge mechanised standing army, like the Soviet Union did. Instead, we built up the biggest navy in the world, because the channel did exist.

France had the biggest army, most tanks, artillery pieces etc by far at the start of the war. However their planning depended upon the Maginot line being unbreakable and the Germans literally marching through Belgium. Their logistics, command & control was little changed from Napoleon's time. They didn't even have telephones at French GCHQ.

[aeropilot]

Earthdweller said:

aeropilot said:

Wacky Racer said:

So, Hypothetically, if there was no English channel, and Hitler's troops and tanks had steamrollered through Kent and on to London, how would the war have panned out.

Very differently, as Germany would have then gained access to much of the British Empires resources to fuel its main aim of getting rid of Stalin, plus control of the Royal Navy, and control of the Suez canal.

That small stretch of water (and the still then might of the RN) coupled with the Wehrmacht not being designed and equipped for amphibious invasion was a huge factor in the eventual outcome of the war.

I disagree with much of your reply

The Empire would have remained as the powerhouse it was and not under Nazi control

The RN would have been redeployed to the US East Coast or other Empire bases

The RAF likewise

You can disagree all you like, but that comment says you haven't a grasp of the reality of the time.
The vast majority of the RAF aircraft at the time simply wouldn't have had the range to get to the USA.

Apart from Coastal Command Sunderlands, and probably a few Bomber Command Wimpy's that could have escaped via Iceland, it couldn't really have gone anywhere.