Hard Left/Hard Right Indicators
Discussion
I'll firstly happily say that I'm a right leaning libertarian, so perhaps I can't see it as clearly as I'm more likely to agree with things on the Right that are dressed up carefully.
Hard Left - The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left indicators - self proclaimed Marxists standing in front of their 'heroes', wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly, wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored - they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...), and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it. Momentum wear their credentials as a badge of honour.
I see the current government labelled extreme/hard right by some, and I'm failing to see anything like the above - as said, I'm either too close to it, they're far more clever in hiding their true intentions or it's simply not happening, at least nowhere near as extreme or as hard as is being made out.
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
What are the ulterior motives, devices and mechanisms that will lead us to the Far Right that I can't see?
Hard Left - The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left indicators - self proclaimed Marxists standing in front of their 'heroes', wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly, wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored - they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...), and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it. Momentum wear their credentials as a badge of honour.
I see the current government labelled extreme/hard right by some, and I'm failing to see anything like the above - as said, I'm either too close to it, they're far more clever in hiding their true intentions or it's simply not happening, at least nowhere near as extreme or as hard as is being made out.
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
What are the ulterior motives, devices and mechanisms that will lead us to the Far Right that I can't see?
The current government is left of center IMO. It makes Labour truly hard left, and again obviously IMO, if we had an equally hard right party fighting an election as Labour is there would be all kinds of calls for it to be banned.
We've arrived at a position over a number of years that all politics is very much left leaning.
I'm no political zealot but the current Labour leadership getting any kind of power to influence my life gives me a cold sweat.
We've arrived at a position over a number of years that all politics is very much left leaning.
I'm no political zealot but the current Labour leadership getting any kind of power to influence my life gives me a cold sweat.
It's a lot more complicated these days isn't it? The only real hard-right policies seem to be the overt racism from the BNP/EDL types, who tend to be from traditional left-leaning working class roots. Centre-right core values such as small government, pro-capitalism and traditional values can hardly be labelled as extreme far-right beliefs, but for those on the left it is hard to see the difference. Brexit is a good example of something people see as hard-right but was primarily supported by traditional left-leaning voters, i.e. old Labour heartlands were more likely to vote leave. Like you I can place myself fairly accurately on the political spectrum. I know I am a centre-right classical libertarian with (small c) conservative values. I think being aware of where you stand helps. I know people who are much further out on either end of the scale who consider themselves centrist.
It's like those who when driving think 'anyone going slower than me is a dangerous dawdler and anyone going faster is a reckless maniac'. A lot of people are unaware of where they are politically in absolute terms, only in relative terms.
It's like those who when driving think 'anyone going slower than me is a dangerous dawdler and anyone going faster is a reckless maniac'. A lot of people are unaware of where they are politically in absolute terms, only in relative terms.
Mothersruin said:
The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left... wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly
Pretend? What do you mean by that?Mothersruin said:
wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored
Where have they said that?Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.Mothersruin said:
and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it.
If the items above are the 'best' you can come up with then the rest of the list must be pretty boring.Mothersruin said:
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
I'm struggling to see anything in your post that is both true and negative. motco said:
Zetec-S said:
For some, supporting Brexit is apparently a hard right indicator.
But hard left Corbyn has always voted against the EU and McDonnell's plans might well be against EU rules, so a no-deal Brexit would actually suit Labour. 
SamR380 said:
Mothersruin said:
The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left... wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly
Pretend? What do you mean by that?Mothersruin said:
wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored
Where have they said that?Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.Mothersruin said:
and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it.
If the items above are the 'best' you can come up with then the rest of the list must be pretty boring.Mothersruin said:
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
I'm struggling to see anything in your post that is both true and negative. Libertarianism and the far right are fundamentally opposed. You would be hard pressed to slip from one to the other.
There is far greater commonality between the far left and the far right, eg, exclusivism in the form of antisemitism within the Labour party, racism in the form of identity politics. Political idealogies form more of a circle than a straight line.
There is far greater commonality between the far left and the far right, eg, exclusivism in the form of antisemitism within the Labour party, racism in the form of identity politics. Political idealogies form more of a circle than a straight line.
SamR380 said:
Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.Randy Winkman said:
It does seem to be another "let's have a go at left-wingers" thread. As if PH isn't enough of a Tory echo-chamber at the moment.
Not at all. I want to know the hard/extreme right indicators displayed by our current government that I can't see. Educate me. Forget the left. Tell me about the right and the dangers. Randy Winkman said:
It does seem to be another "let's have a go at left-wingers" thread. As if PH isn't enough of a Tory echo-chamber at the moment.
I think that is true, to an extentHowever, I fell that with gimmicky policy (on both sides), you politicise or polarise arguments. That way it looks like people are more extreme than they are (plus whon doesn't like a diversive debate for entertainment).
The big red brexit bus is an example for this, as is Labour's broadband plan. First its steal 20bn of BT, then they need another 100bn to see it through. Its a nonsense, as McDonnell's invented fantasy accounting.
Problem is, a lot of people buy it; hence it can be incumbent on those with a broader understanding to at least challenge it.
Some of Labour's fiscal policy ideas are not that bad (to be fair), but the clowns in charge can't help themselves to demonise the middle classes and affluent.
SamR380 said:
Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.There can be no doubt what he means, can there?
SamR380 said:
Mothersruin said:
The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left... wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly
Pretend? What do you mean by that?Mothersruin said:
wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored
Where have they said that?Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.Mothersruin said:
and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it.
If the items above are the 'best' you can come up with then the rest of the list must be pretty boring.Mothersruin said:
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
I'm struggling to see anything in your post that is both true and negative. SamR380 said:
Mothersruin said:
The current Corbyn/McDonnell show have obvious Hard Left... wants the state to control everything so it can take all we have and pretend to dole it out fairly
Pretend? What do you mean by that?Mothersruin said:
wants state control of media and how it's delivered/censored
Where have they said that?Mothersruin said:
they're able to rouse activists that will smother other opinions with violence if necessary (AntiFa etc...)
If you think anyone in the Labour cabinet supports violent rent-a-mobs you really need to check your perspective. It's like saying Rory Stewart supports the EDL.Mothersruin said:
and the list goes on - it's all out there, they don't try to hide it.
If the items above are the 'best' you can come up with then the rest of the list must be pretty boring.Mothersruin said:
I started this post because when I speak to mates that love Corbyn yet I point out a few of the things above, they can't see it, or simply didn't know about it. I don't want to be in their shoes looking, frankly, stupid.
I'm struggling to see anything in your post that is both true and negative. 
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