Passengers too heavy to fly
Discussion
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/passengers-a...
I've wondered about this in the past, they'll weigh your luggage, on a hot air balloon flight or glider they'll want to know. But I've never been weighed on a commercial flight, how does the pilot know?
I've wondered about this in the past, they'll weigh your luggage, on a hot air balloon flight or glider they'll want to know. But I've never been weighed on a commercial flight, how does the pilot know?
A question for the plane spotters out there.. how can 5 extra people out of 50 on board, so 10% mean that a plane cannot take off ?
Why would a wet runway effect take off distance? I can understand a wet runway on a heavy plane for landing, but what about take off?
I'm missing something here, no doubt about to be educated ! Cheers!
Why would a wet runway effect take off distance? I can understand a wet runway on a heavy plane for landing, but what about take off?
I'm missing something here, no doubt about to be educated ! Cheers!
There is plenty of margin on passenger aircraft. Say a rugby team or a group of weightlifters hops on?.
However, when a plane has a limited number of passengers and is (say ) half full they will sometimes ask people to move around until plane takes off. Planes weigh themselves on the ground and the crew can tell if the load is balanced. I was on a flight from Vancouver to Toronto recently ( Airbus A320) with few passengers and they did move a lot of people around. I wasn't to moved but there was lots of grumbling. However, once in the air people were free to return to their original assigned seat.
However, when a plane has a limited number of passengers and is (say ) half full they will sometimes ask people to move around until plane takes off. Planes weigh themselves on the ground and the crew can tell if the load is balanced. I was on a flight from Vancouver to Toronto recently ( Airbus A320) with few passengers and they did move a lot of people around. I wasn't to moved but there was lots of grumbling. However, once in the air people were free to return to their original assigned seat.
Rain affects this because it reduces the V1 point of the ‘plane. This is the point where you’re going to fly, even if something bad happens, simply because you’re not going to stop before you hit the end of the runway. If the runway is slippery (wet), then you’ll need longer to stop, so you hit V1 sooner, and your speed will be lower. If your new V1 speed is lower than the speed the plane can fly at, you need to unload some lard. Passengers are considered as average weight, so you don’t need to go and look for the fatties.
Large ‘planes are as affected by this as small ones, but have such huge reserves of power that it is rarely an issue. If you’ve ever been in a commercial plane that needed to get off the ground in a big hurry, you’ll realise that a normal take off is a pretty relaxed affair. Large planes also tend to operate on runways where the length is so great that the plane is well off the ground before V1 technically needs to be called.
Large ‘planes are as affected by this as small ones, but have such huge reserves of power that it is rarely an issue. If you’ve ever been in a commercial plane that needed to get off the ground in a big hurry, you’ll realise that a normal take off is a pretty relaxed affair. Large planes also tend to operate on runways where the length is so great that the plane is well off the ground before V1 technically needs to be called.
Zoobeef said:
Your ticket should be for a total mass. Tickets being paid for by thin/normal people are subsidising the fatties.
Have often felt this when bog holidays & stressing over the finals kgs of luggage allowance. You then see the larger then average folk who have several dozen more KG on them... Yet pay the same for the ticket & luggage.Family member flew with a chap so large he needed both the arm rests up to fit, family member had a window seat so had a very very uncomfortable flight.. He was so fed up by the end of the flight he wrote to the CEO and got some serious air miles FOC as an apology. Doesn't seem right.
rxe said:
Rain affects this because it reduces the V1 point of the ‘plane.
I thought V1 speed would increase because air is replaced by water, leading to a significant reduction of air density?rxe said:
This is the point where you’re going to fly
I understand V1 = rotation? (ie, transition to flight from runway?)rxe said:
If the runway is slippery (wet), then you’ll need longer to stop
OK - basic reduction in tyre friction on runway surface.rxe said:
so you hit V1 sooner, and your speed will be lower.
But nothing to do with rain/wet surface.Isn't there a minimum fixed speed for V1 for an empty aircraft, meaning higher load (+/- change in air density) = higher/lower V1 speed?
rxe said:
If your new V1 speed is lower than the speed the plane can fly at, you need to unload some lard...
Hmm, this is also somewhat confusing - how can an aircraft *not* have a lower V1 speed, compared to take off speed, which is based on wing loading, air density and ground speed?Would love to see this post in the Boats, Trains and Planes section so my numerous questions can be put straight by others as well...
ReverendCounter said:
Hmm, this is also somewhat confusing - how can an aircraft *not* have a lower V1 speed, compared to take off speed, which is based on wing loading, air density and ground speed?
Would love to see this post in the Boats, Trains and Planes section so my numerous questions can be put straight by others as well...
Surely V1 is the point at which you can no longer stop without crashing so you are committed to take off when you reach take off speed, the plane does not take off at V1 if I understand correctly.Would love to see this post in the Boats, Trains and Planes section so my numerous questions can be put straight by others as well...
So if the runway is wet and you cannot accellerate and more importantly stop as effectively then your V1 becomes lower then you need a lower take off speed to make sure you reach take off speed not too long after committing, and the way to do this is to reduce take off weight?
I flew a local commuter plane between islands in Hawaii and they weighed each passenger and each piece of luggage and then worked out where to put everyone on the plane. Like posted above, smaller planes (particularly turbo prop) with less power have less margin for error than the bigger commercial jets.
I flew a local commuter plane between islands in Hawaii and they weighed each passenger and each piece of luggage and then worked out where to put everyone on the plane. Like posted above, smaller planes (particularly turbo prop) with less power have less margin for error than the bigger commercial jets.
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I managed an airport off the west coast of Ireland, we used 10 seat Islanders, part of my job was weighing passengers and luggage, doing the calculations, advising on fuel load if it was getting tight.
99 times out of 100 Pilots used my plan, obviously they did have final say.
We got lots of Americans coming over, sometimes we had to fly with with 4 empty seats.
Edited by waynedear on Wednesday 25th December 18:52
ReverendCounter said:
Hmm, this is also somewhat confusing - how can an aircraft *not* have a lower V1 speed, compared to take off speed, which is based on wing loading, air density and ground speed?
Would love to see this post in the Boats, Trains and Planes section so my numerous questions can be put straight by others as well...
V1 is the speed beyond which take off should not be aborted as there is insufficient runway distance to safely stop. In effect you are committed to flying at this point (the performance calculations involve working out the distances and is this translated into a speed) hence it being an issue if its significantly lower than the speed the aircraft can safely take off at (V2 is the take off safety speed at which the aircraft can safely climb even with one engine out). As RXE mentioned, a contaminated (wet) runway is a double whammy as it increases the acceleration distance required (so you're further down the runway by the time you reach rotation speed/V2) and increases the distance required to stop if you are unable to fly.Would love to see this post in the Boats, Trains and Planes section so my numerous questions can be put straight by others as well...
Take off distance for an EMB-145 on a dry runway might range from 1,400m (lightly fueled) up to 2,000m at max take off weight per the link below. A wet runway will increase both distances significantly such that Southend's 1,850m runway could easily become a limiting factor, especially for an aircraft not blessed with take off performance anyway.
https://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/wp-conte...
I've been used as ballast a few times on flights.
First time was on a Piper Tomahawk which is flew and was a passenger a few times down at the Cambrian flying school. Small aircraft so was obvious that it would make a difference.
Second time was on a Jetstream 31, as part of the NFLC at Cranfield. I was part of 3 in the class that moved from the front row to the back to modify the CoG and change the flight dynamics.
Third time was on a particularly empty A380. I guess they'd front loaded all the passengers at check-in, so moved a few of us to the back. I very much appreciated the entirely empty row to lie down in!
First time was on a Piper Tomahawk which is flew and was a passenger a few times down at the Cambrian flying school. Small aircraft so was obvious that it would make a difference.
Second time was on a Jetstream 31, as part of the NFLC at Cranfield. I was part of 3 in the class that moved from the front row to the back to modify the CoG and change the flight dynamics.
Third time was on a particularly empty A380. I guess they'd front loaded all the passengers at check-in, so moved a few of us to the back. I very much appreciated the entirely empty row to lie down in!
PositronicRay said:
I've wondered about this in the past, they'll weigh your luggage, on a hot air balloon flight or glider they'll want to know. But I've never been weighed on a commercial flight, how does the pilot know?
I've been asked for my weight and been weighed for stuff that's sub 15 seats or so and seated accordingly. Scabutz said:
I was watching an air crash investigation programme and I cant remember the details of the crash but one was attributed to the plane being full of marines and all their kit.
Everything had been worked out on normal people and ot a bunch of marines with all their kit.
Not the same incident, but:Everything had been worked out on normal people and ot a bunch of marines with all their kit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight...
Zetec-S said:
The middle ground between tin can and airliner often makes me wonder. All it would take is a few grade one porkers and a lack of diligence and things are more likely to go wrong. 
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