What if it was an electric motorcycle...?
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51647...
Absolutely tragic that someone has lost their life.
I am, however, interested in the defence argument that causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed hinge on whether there was a fault in the driving that contributed to the death.
Would this then mean that you could ride an electric motorcycle unlicensed and uninsured, safe in the knowledge that if someone steps out in front of you and you hit them and kill them then, unless your riding was below the standard expected, you walk away scot-free?
Absolutely tragic that someone has lost their life.
I am, however, interested in the defence argument that causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed hinge on whether there was a fault in the driving that contributed to the death.
Would this then mean that you could ride an electric motorcycle unlicensed and uninsured, safe in the knowledge that if someone steps out in front of you and you hit them and kill them then, unless your riding was below the standard expected, you walk away scot-free?
Rubin215 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51647...
Absolutely tragic that someone has lost their life.
I am, however, interested in the defence argument that causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed hinge on whether there was a fault in the driving that contributed to the death.
Would this then mean that you could ride an electric motorcycle unlicensed and uninsured, safe in the knowledge that if someone steps out in front of you and you hit them and kill them then, unless your riding was below the standard expected, you walk away scot-free?
Well, for these charges to work, the rider has to have 'caused death' as well as being unlicensed/uninsured.. So it has to be at least in part his fault. Absolutely tragic that someone has lost their life.
I am, however, interested in the defence argument that causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed hinge on whether there was a fault in the driving that contributed to the death.
Would this then mean that you could ride an electric motorcycle unlicensed and uninsured, safe in the knowledge that if someone steps out in front of you and you hit them and kill them then, unless your riding was below the standard expected, you walk away scot-free?
It doesn't mean you can ride without insurance provided you don't cause a death- you could still be done for no insurance.
It's akin to Death by Dangerous Driving- both components are needed, the Death and the Dangerous Driving. Without the death, you can still be done for Dangerous Driving.
Intersting point though- if E Bike man is found not guilty of these charges, will he still be convicted on no insurance/licence?
I find the electric bicycle market to be an accident waiting to happen: legally these bikes are supposed to have motors capable (IIRC) of 250W output yet the importers are bringing in bikes with 700W+ motors and marketing them as "250W sustained". Bikes are being sold as "off road use only" in very small print whilst fitted with tyres suited to tarmac and purchased by people using them to commute. The internet BS narrative is either to ride slowly enough to not get caught or take your CBT to be legal 
What started as a product aimed at giving people an easier time going up hills so they could cycle farther has now turned into 25mph road vehicles with no tax, insurance, MOT, registration, licence or safety equipment required and construction standards completely unsuited to the real use of the vehicles.
Leccy MTB's are awesome tho
What started as a product aimed at giving people an easier time going up hills so they could cycle farther has now turned into 25mph road vehicles with no tax, insurance, MOT, registration, licence or safety equipment required and construction standards completely unsuited to the real use of the vehicles.
Leccy MTB's are awesome tho
So 3mph slower than a s
tty neutered 50cc 28mph bks speed limited scooter/ped. That's a lot of extra hassle and cost for 3mph!!
Interesting to note as well that there is no minimum riding age or supervision regulations around horse use. So in theory your 5 year old kid could charge to the playground on public roads without insurance, tax, license, supervision and I believe horses can reach 55mph! An adult can struggle to control a horse, let alone a kid of any age, somehow this dodges all legislation.
So on that premise, an insured, taxed and licensed 16 year old should at least be able to command a bike that does the same speed. How are kids ever going to be attracted to biking with all the bks speed limits and power restrictions and high costs for an unreasonable return.
tty neutered 50cc 28mph bks speed limited scooter/ped. That's a lot of extra hassle and cost for 3mph!!Interesting to note as well that there is no minimum riding age or supervision regulations around horse use. So in theory your 5 year old kid could charge to the playground on public roads without insurance, tax, license, supervision and I believe horses can reach 55mph! An adult can struggle to control a horse, let alone a kid of any age, somehow this dodges all legislation.
So on that premise, an insured, taxed and licensed 16 year old should at least be able to command a bike that does the same speed. How are kids ever going to be attracted to biking with all the b
ks speed limits and power restrictions and high costs for an unreasonable return.Sadly it was only a matter of time.
UK Law i general needs an overhaul and there needs to be better ways of keeping up with technology - drones being another obvious example.
In this case there is fault on both sides - he was riding an illegal bike although a pushbike can reach 30+ with a good rider.
Pedestrians need to be aware of their surroundings and look for bikes.
If, as reported she rushed into the road, against a green light, then IMO it's irrelevant whether he was using a car, bike, skateboard... he's not to blame for her death.
UK Law i general needs an overhaul and there needs to be better ways of keeping up with technology - drones being another obvious example.
In this case there is fault on both sides - he was riding an illegal bike although a pushbike can reach 30+ with a good rider.
Pedestrians need to be aware of their surroundings and look for bikes.
If, as reported she rushed into the road, against a green light, then IMO it's irrelevant whether he was using a car, bike, skateboard... he's not to blame for her death.
V8RX7 said:
If, as reported she rushed into the road, against a green light, then IMO it's irrelevant whether he was using a car, bike, skateboard... he's not to blame for her death.
Only if he took all possible action to avoid the accident, and one of the considerations would be what vehicle he was in charge of and how/where was he driving/riding it...morebeanz said:
Only if he took all possible action to avoid the accident, and one of the considerations would be what vehicle he was in charge of and how/where was he driving/riding it...
I don't think you understand the words rushed into the road - there is no time to react.I hit a kid on a bike who rode across a red light, at dusk, with no lights - I never saw him, I heard the impact and then braked.
No charges as it wasn't my fault.
It's a road, for vehicles, if you dive onto it, without looking, there is a good chance you'll be hurt / killed and it's your fault.
A very sad situation.
I think the defence in relation to the causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed have some degree of a valid point. Assuming the fact he was uninsured and unlicensed is not contested the question is "did he CAUSE the death"? Simply being uninsured and unlicensed does not cause death. For him to cause death, it would be reasonable to assume he needs to be seen at fault with regards tothe situation. Had he been licensed and insured in this specific scenario, would he be charged with any other "causing death" charge? If not, then why should the lack of license and insurance allow for a "causing death" charge?
All that is not to say he shouldn't have the book thrown at him for no license and no insurance.
I think the defence in relation to the causing death while uninsured and causing death while unlicensed have some degree of a valid point. Assuming the fact he was uninsured and unlicensed is not contested the question is "did he CAUSE the death"? Simply being uninsured and unlicensed does not cause death. For him to cause death, it would be reasonable to assume he needs to be seen at fault with regards tothe situation. Had he been licensed and insured in this specific scenario, would he be charged with any other "causing death" charge? If not, then why should the lack of license and insurance allow for a "causing death" charge?
All that is not to say he shouldn't have the book thrown at him for no license and no insurance.
V8RX7 said:
I don't think you understand the words rushed into the road - there is no time to react.
I hit a kid on a bike who rode across a red light, at dusk, with no lights - I never saw him, I heard the impact and then braked.
No charges as it wasn't my fault.
It's a road, for vehicles, if you dive onto it, without looking, there is a good chance you'll be hurt / killed and it's your fault.
It's a road for vehicles, and pedestrians. And however much you might wish the opposite, pedestrians are the priority on roads.I hit a kid on a bike who rode across a red light, at dusk, with no lights - I never saw him, I heard the impact and then braked.
No charges as it wasn't my fault.
It's a road, for vehicles, if you dive onto it, without looking, there is a good chance you'll be hurt / killed and it's your fault.
V8RX7 said:
If, as reported she rushed into the road, against a green light, then IMO it's irrelevant whether he was using a car, bike, skateboard... he's not to blame for her death.
In that other case, last year I think, and possibly at Cannon Street, where someone was killed in an accident with a (non electric) pushbike, iirc she also walked out in front of him but he copped for it? They said he only had one brake and was "riding furiously" or something. This has to go the same way, with the electric/lack of licence/etc piled on top?Although any situation where the ped walks out without looking but the cyclist is found at fault is fundamentally wrong. I have this almost daily albeit on a motorbike, including today, woman with headphones and gawping head-down at her phone just walked straight across me.
hiccy18 said:
I find the electric bicycle market to be an accident waiting to happen: legally these bikes are supposed to have motors capable (IIRC) of 250W output yet the importers are bringing in bikes with 700W+ motors and marketing them as "250W sustained". Bikes are being sold as "off road use only" in very small print whilst fitted with tyres suited to tarmac and purchased by people using them to commute. The internet BS narrative is either to ride slowly enough to not get caught or take your CBT to be legal
What started as a product aimed at giving people an easier time going up hills so they could cycle farther has now turned into 25mph road vehicles with no tax, insurance, MOT, registration, licence or safety equipment required and construction standards completely unsuited to the real use of the vehicles.
Completely agree. And there are a significant number of people who will knowingly and dangerously flout the rules with the likes of this accident being the result. What started as a product aimed at giving people an easier time going up hills so they could cycle farther has now turned into 25mph road vehicles with no tax, insurance, MOT, registration, licence or safety equipment required and construction standards completely unsuited to the real use of the vehicles.
So much of this is down to the drop in policing and the general ineffectiveness of the police themselves. How many coppers would have seen this guy Hanlon riding in such a way that it was clear the bike was illegal? Possibly none at all because there are no coppers around. And had one seen him then what would they have done? Given this would be the Met Police then I think the answer to that is a big fat 'nothing'.
I hope they throw the book at the scrote in question. (He left the scene of the accident where an old lady was killed - he's a scrote.)
CAPP0 said:
V8RX7 said:
If, as reported she rushed into the road, against a green light, then IMO it's irrelevant whether he was using a car, bike, skateboard... he's not to blame for her death.
In that other case, last year I think, and possibly at Cannon Street, where someone was killed in an accident with a (non electric) pushbike, iirc she also walked out in front of him but he copped for it? They said he only had one brake and was "riding furiously" or something. This has to go the same way, with the electric/lack of licence/etc piled on top?Although any situation where the ped walks out without looking but the cyclist is found at fault is fundamentally wrong. I have this almost daily albeit on a motorbike, including today, woman with headphones and gawping head-down at her phone just walked straight across me.
He either had modified it or it wasn't a road bike
He was going fast and had time to react but didn't
2Btoo said:
I hope they throw the book at the scrote in question. (He left the scene of the accident where an old lady was killed - he's a scrote.)
I'm not saying he's not a scrote but did you miss the bit that said Mr Rasiah quoted a second witness, Joshua Stubbs, as saying: "It looked like their heads made contact then the cyclist fell to the ground.
"After a few seconds the cyclist got up and looked dazed and confused, the lady lay motionless on the road."
I don't know if you've had a significant knock to the head that's left you dazed and confused. I have, more than once, and can assure you that what you do afterwords is not make logical considered decisions. The fact he left the scene likely means nothing other than he was dazed and confused.
If he hadn't modified his bicycle then he wouldn't have been going 25mph and it is very likely that this accident wouldn't have happened at all. If it had still happened but at 15mph then the results may have been somewhat different for all parties.
It's a built up area and maybe the pedestrian didn't expect a bicycle to be coming at that speed. Look right and it's a long way away, look left, step out, look right and... The cyclist has to take some responsibility for not riding appropriately for the area they were in.
It's a built up area and maybe the pedestrian didn't expect a bicycle to be coming at that speed. Look right and it's a long way away, look left, step out, look right and... The cyclist has to take some responsibility for not riding appropriately for the area they were in.
It's a shame because accidents like this end up causing the thousands of people who use them every day for commuting on without bother a headache.
Inappropriate speed will always do harm - that case from a couple of years ago where the bloke was careering about on a fixie and hit someone was the same way. Nothing wrong with a fixie bike, as long as it's ridden considerately.
Inappropriate speed will always do harm - that case from a couple of years ago where the bloke was careering about on a fixie and hit someone was the same way. Nothing wrong with a fixie bike, as long as it's ridden considerately.
The other case mentioned above the chap was using a 'fixie', no front brakes, fixed back wheel, ie pedal back to make it stop! I tried one in another country once, dangerous imho, you can stand on the pedal and lock the back wheel but very little control imho and if you're forward pedalling you can't react as fast. They are illegal to use on the road, rightly so.
Rubin215 said:
Would this then mean that you could ride an electric motorcycle unlicensed and uninsured, safe in the knowledge that if someone steps out in front of you and you hit them and kill them then, unless your riding was below the standard expected, you walk away scot-free?
Nope.The CPS can prosecute "causing death by uninsured driving" if the vehicle is not insured but is involved in a collision which results in death. The standard of driving is irrelevant.
In this case, the CPS allege that as well as being uninsured, the vehicle was driven too quickly (ie without due care).
The maximum sentence for death by careless is 5 years.
The maximum sentence for death by uninsured is 2 years.
black-k1 said:
I'm not saying he's not a scrote but did you miss the bit that said
Mr Rasiah quoted a second witness, Joshua Stubbs, as saying: "It looked like their heads made contact then the cyclist fell to the ground.
"After a few seconds the cyclist got up and looked dazed and confused, the lady lay motionless on the road."
I don't know if you've had a significant knock to the head that's left you dazed and confused. I have, more than once, and can assure you that what you do afterwords is not make logical considered decisions. The fact he left the scene likely means nothing other than he was dazed and confused.
Did you miss the bit where it said someone tried to stop him riding off but he did anyway?Mr Rasiah quoted a second witness, Joshua Stubbs, as saying: "It looked like their heads made contact then the cyclist fell to the ground.
"After a few seconds the cyclist got up and looked dazed and confused, the lady lay motionless on the road."
I don't know if you've had a significant knock to the head that's left you dazed and confused. I have, more than once, and can assure you that what you do afterwords is not make logical considered decisions. The fact he left the scene likely means nothing other than he was dazed and confused.
Guys a prick, he'll be made an example of to deter this crime I reckon.
Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff