E10 Bioethanol petrol

[sherbertdip]

Looks like we'e heading for 10% Bio fuel, that means fuel lines may have to be replaced on many cars, and some cars may not run on it, I do wonder if it really is equivalent of taking 350,000 cars off the road EVERY YEAR?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51731757

[Condi]

Fuel lines will be fine. Available in many other parts of the world with no problems. German, French or American car makers put the same fuel lines in domestic vehicles (which all have e10 everywhere) and vehicles heading the UK.

[anonymous-user]

You need to inject more fuel as the alcohol content increases to achieve the correct afr, so expect your fuel economy to suffer if you have a modern closed loop lambda engine.

On an open loop car the engine will run leaner without a remap or jet change.

[Olas]

We've had ethanol in our UK road fuel since 1992 - why are people only becoming concerned in the last 2-3 years?

All else eing equal, ess energy per unit volume means more fuel use per mile, BUT this does not consider latent heat of vaporisation, charge density or AKI. Driven sensibly, one set of characteristics offset the other and you really dont notice any difference. Driven like a madman, you go faster and fill up more frequently.

The lesser chosen alternative is to use your knowldge of phase-seperation to remove all ethanol from your fuel.

[matchmaker]

Will this affect super unleaded?

[55palfers]

What about older cars? Both of mine are from the nineties....

[anonymous-user]

Olas said:

We've had ethanol in our UK road fuel since 1992 - why are people only becoming concerned in the last 2-3 years?

All else eing equal, ess energy per unit volume means more fuel use per mile, BUT this does not consider latent heat of vaporisation, charge density or AKI. Driven sensibly, one set of characteristics offset the other and you really dont notice any difference. Driven like a madman, you go faster and fill up more frequently.

The lesser chosen alternative is to use your knowldge of phase-seperation to remove all ethanol from your fuel.

It doesn't matter how you drive, you will use more fuel with more alchohol content in the fuel on a properly calibrated engine.

[Langweilig]

Take 350,000 cars off the road? There's something called Vehicle Excise Duty. How is the Government going to recoup the loss in terms of taxation?

[marksx]

What about my early 80s bike? Am I going to have to start refining my own crude?

[rdjohn]

55palfers said:

What about older cars? Both of mine are from the nineties....

I have a 1990 BMW Cabrio in the UK but normally live in France where E10 has been available for a long time.

I checked that the car car was able to use the stuff and BMW confirmed that it was OK.

Twice after filling with the stuff in France, different section of the fuel lines have failed. Each time it cost €20-30 to fix - so hardly a problem. The car runs fine on it.

To be safe, this year when driving down to Spain, I used the standard 95 fuel. This has always been available alongside the E10. Can’t see why that would not also be the case in the UK.

The BBC story does not seem correct to me - just a bit alarmist.

[catso]

Langweilig said:

Take 350,000 cars off the road? There's something called Vehicle Excise Duty. How is the Government going to recoup the loss in terms of taxation?

I don't think you need to worry, they'll find a way...

[Olas]

jsf said:

It doesn't matter how you drive, you will use more fuel with more alchohol content in the fuel on a properly calibrated engine.

Ethanol cools the inlet charge more than petrol aswell as having a higher AKI - this allows more spark advance and therefore more torque e injected quanityt of fuel. Or less fuel injected per torque requested.

Looking at the chemistry in isolation on paper tells you that there is a difference in BTU but this does not consider KR strategies in modern EFI engines

[R Mutt]

I thought alternative fuels went out of fashion a decade ago and we were doing away with ICE completely.

This doesn't seem worth implementing for an interim measure and even green campaigners aren't interested in this. Not that they're really supporting EV anywhere in their manifesto either.

[fido]

catso said:

Langweilig said:

Take 350,000 cars off the road? There's something called Vehicle Excise Duty. How is the Government going to recoup the loss in terms of taxation?

I don't think you need to worry, they'll find a way...

Well you'll have to buy 1.5% more of E10 versus E5 (assuming it returns proportionally less mpg) so that's more tax!

[Olas]

rdjohn said:

I have a 1990 BMW Cabrio in the UK but normally live in France where E10 has been available for a long time.

I checked that the car car was able to use the stuff and BMW confirmed that it was OK.

Twice after filling with the stuff in France, different section of the fuel lines have failed. Each time it cost €20-30 to fix - so hardly a problem. The car runs fine on it.

To be safe, this year when driving down to Spain, I used the standard 95 fuel. This has always been available alongside the E10. Can’t see why that would not also be the case in the UK.

The BBC story does not seem correct to me - just a bit alarmist.

I'd argue that a 30yr old section of fuel line was due for replacement anyway. Had they been replaced in, say, the last 3 years before the lines failed when using french fuel? I wasnt there but Im tempted to say that coincidence is NOT causal.

[anonymous-user]

Olas said:

Ethanol cools the inlet charge more than petrol aswell as having a higher AKI - this allows more spark advance and therefore more torque e injected quanityt of fuel. Or less fuel injected per torque requested.

Looking at the chemistry in isolation on paper tells you that there is a difference in BTU but this does not consider KR strategies in modern EFI engines

You need to inject 4% more fuel for E10 compared to plain petrol to achieve the same lambda, it's lambda that the engine management system targets.

So on a modern engine which targets lambda 1, you will use 4% more fuel using E10 over plain petrol, 2% more compared to E5.

You can run a higher ignition target under load with more alcohol so can pick up some torque, but that doesn't change the fuel economy impact on cruise and if wanting to take advantage of the extra torque potential you will inject even more fuel than previously.

[jet_noise]

Even more land being taken out of a, seemingly to me, more useful task - growing food.
Even more plant fertiliser being denied so there will be less food.

We're all going to starve!

[somewhat tongue in cheek smiley to emphasise a point ]

[BeastieBoy73]

Is there a list of cars that won't run well on E10? I have a 2002 200 SLK and I'm about to buy a 2005 200 CLK. Whilst neither car would be considered a classic, they're both cherished and along way off being scrapped.

[Plinth]

BeastieBoy73 said:

Is there a list of cars that won't run well on E10? I have a 2002 200 SLK and I'm about to buy a 2005 200 CLK. Whilst neither car would be considered a classic, they're both cherished and along way off being scrapped.

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf

[Condi]

BeastieBoy73 said:

Is there a list of cars that won't run well on E10? I have a 2002 200 SLK and I'm about to buy a 2005 200 CLK. Whilst neither car would be considered a classic, they're both cherished and along way off being scrapped.

Be fine. We are a long way behind the rest of the world with this.