Are the police really racist?
Discussion
Thanks to the events of the last week or so I’ve seen a lot of statistics put around on social media and I’m wondering what the general consensus on them is.
Is it best practice to interpret in raw numbers or, as I’m noticing is more common in the mainstream media per proportion of the population?
From what I’ve seen, in raw numbers every year in the US and UK there are significantly more white people, armed and unarmed, that die at the hands of the police than all other ethnicities.
The flip side of the argument being that the numbers for BAME deaths are greater compared to the proportion of the population they represent.
For example
In the US last year apparently it was 10 unarmed black people killed by police but 19 whites.
So seems a bigger problem for white people.
However if the %/population into it then it’s obviously a bigger problem for black people being 50% of the deaths but only about 13% of the population.
So which is the correct data set to use?
Is it best practice to interpret in raw numbers or, as I’m noticing is more common in the mainstream media per proportion of the population?
From what I’ve seen, in raw numbers every year in the US and UK there are significantly more white people, armed and unarmed, that die at the hands of the police than all other ethnicities.
The flip side of the argument being that the numbers for BAME deaths are greater compared to the proportion of the population they represent.
For example
In the US last year apparently it was 10 unarmed black people killed by police but 19 whites.
So seems a bigger problem for white people.
However if the %/population into it then it’s obviously a bigger problem for black people being 50% of the deaths but only about 13% of the population.
So which is the correct data set to use?
Given the culture in the US, especially in the southern states, I think it is certain that there is racism within the US police force. The extent of it and how it affects police behaviour is hard to pin down. They certainly do kill civilians of many other skin tones and they kill rather a lot every year.
The question would seem to be the degree to which people in the US are willing to tolerate a police force that routinely uses violence in the course of duty and to what extent they're prepared to stand up to police brutality.
In the UK, we are considerably more moderate and while racism definitely exists, we are much further forward than the US. I would argue that the police is actually crippled by its desperation to avoid being accused of racism these days, although that's not to say it doesn't happen.
The question would seem to be the degree to which people in the US are willing to tolerate a police force that routinely uses violence in the course of duty and to what extent they're prepared to stand up to police brutality.
In the UK, we are considerably more moderate and while racism definitely exists, we are much further forward than the US. I would argue that the police is actually crippled by its desperation to avoid being accused of racism these days, although that's not to say it doesn't happen.
America has a problem with its police, but America's police has a problem with America too, look at how many cops are shot themselves. That will affect how you treat any suspect.
The problem is more blacks by % are poorer, it is true you can trace back to slavery, although there are many factors, but the coal face is simply being poorer you're more likely to end up on the wrong side of the law and all that entails.
I'm not claiming racism doesn't also exist...
But that's too nuanced for many, why try to understand the problem when you can virtue signal
The problem is more blacks by % are poorer, it is true you can trace back to slavery, although there are many factors, but the coal face is simply being poorer you're more likely to end up on the wrong side of the law and all that entails.
I'm not claiming racism doesn't also exist...
But that's too nuanced for many, why try to understand the problem when you can virtue signal
Some people are racists, and arguably America has more of them, and there are some serious historical race relations issues. So, some police will be racists.
There are also some police who use excessive force and kill people. Especially in America where there are more guns and the level of street violence is worse.
Thing is, we don't know if the reason any particular black person being killed by the police is due to racism - or one of the many other reasons why they might use excessive force and kill someone, and in the US they kill lots of people, some of them will be black!
Black people are more likely to be killed by the police in the US compared to their percentage of the population, BUT they are also more likely to be arrested as well.
Whether they are responsible for more crime, or just more likely to be investigated and arrested, is another discussion entirely
There are also some police who use excessive force and kill people. Especially in America where there are more guns and the level of street violence is worse.
Thing is, we don't know if the reason any particular black person being killed by the police is due to racism - or one of the many other reasons why they might use excessive force and kill someone, and in the US they kill lots of people, some of them will be black!
Black people are more likely to be killed by the police in the US compared to their percentage of the population, BUT they are also more likely to be arrested as well.
Whether they are responsible for more crime, or just more likely to be investigated and arrested, is another discussion entirely
There is widespread systemic racism in the US, not exclusively against black Americans (Native Americans, South and Latin Americans plus other groups) but black Americans suffer the worst. There are people alive that witnessed public lynchings (a bit like public hangings but without the bothersome trials and people being guilty), there are plenty alive that fought to maintain segregation and stop the civil rights movement and there are lots that still maintain negative views of black people. From the president down. It would be odd if the police - especially in the South were not systemically racist.
Plymo said:
Some people are racists, and arguably America has more of them, and there are some serious historical race relations issues. So, some police will be racists.
There are also some police who use excessive force and kill people. Especially in America where there are more guns and the level of street violence is worse.
Thing is, we don't know if the reason any particular black person being killed by the police is due to racism - or one of the many other reasons why they might use excessive force and kill someone, and in the US they kill lots of people, some of them will be black!
Black people are more likely to be killed by the police in the US compared to their percentage of the population, BUT they are also more likely to be arrested as well.
Whether they are responsible for more crime, or just more likely to be investigated and arrested, is another discussion entirely
Also fined into poverty There are also some police who use excessive force and kill people. Especially in America where there are more guns and the level of street violence is worse.
Thing is, we don't know if the reason any particular black person being killed by the police is due to racism - or one of the many other reasons why they might use excessive force and kill someone, and in the US they kill lots of people, some of them will be black!
Black people are more likely to be killed by the police in the US compared to their percentage of the population, BUT they are also more likely to be arrested as well.
Whether they are responsible for more crime, or just more likely to be investigated and arrested, is another discussion entirely
You can be too intelligent to be am American copper
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-i...
Training period 21 weeks
https://work.chron.com/long-train-cop-21366.html
Is there any wonder they make a myriad of mistakes.
Pepper spray, taser, night stick and gun and the first thing they reach for is the gun.
They have their go to offences which they often (wilfully) misquote (But so do the UK police)
And OP if you factor the number of crimes committed by African Americans (50% of murders etc) they are under represented in the death statistics. But like anything about stats it's how you want to cut it.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-i...
Training period 21 weeks
https://work.chron.com/long-train-cop-21366.html
Is there any wonder they make a myriad of mistakes.
Pepper spray, taser, night stick and gun and the first thing they reach for is the gun.
They have their go to offences which they often (wilfully) misquote (But so do the UK police)
And OP if you factor the number of crimes committed by African Americans (50% of murders etc) they are under represented in the death statistics. But like anything about stats it's how you want to cut it.
Yes, unfortunately, in the UK the police are still institutionally racist, and will be for probably two more generations at least, at a guess.
I have an 11 year old son who's mixed race, in a few years he'll be out and about on his own, in town with his friends etc, do I trust the police to treat him fairly if he encounters them? Absolutely not, unfortunately.
I have an 11 year old son who's mixed race, in a few years he'll be out and about on his own, in town with his friends etc, do I trust the police to treat him fairly if he encounters them? Absolutely not, unfortunately.
wjb said:
Yes, unfortunately, in the UK the police are still institutionally racist, and will be for probably two more generations at least, at a guess.
I have an 11 year old son who's mixed race, in a few years he'll be out and about on his own, in town with his friends etc, do I trust the police to treat him fairly if he encounters them? Absolutely not, unfortunately.
Out of interest though what makes you say that if the stats say otherwise? I have an 11 year old son who's mixed race, in a few years he'll be out and about on his own, in town with his friends etc, do I trust the police to treat him fairly if he encounters them? Absolutely not, unfortunately.
wjb said:
I have an 11 year old son who's mixed race, in a few years he'll be out and about on his own, in town with his friends etc, do I trust the police to treat him fairly if he encounters them? Absolutely not, unfortunately.
Does he wear a hoodie with hood up everywhere? Or is he dressed normally.As I'm suspicious of anyone who is wearing a hoodie up when it isn't cold/indoors. And 99% happen to be ethnic. But Im suspicious of anyone hiding their head like that weirdly, regardless of race
RB Will said:
Out of interest though what makes you say that if the stats say otherwise?
Personal experience, growing up in the 90's, and what I still see and hear today. Getting called the n word by an officer in uniform doesn't help.
I could give you plenty of examples, been driving 20 years and been stopped untold times in every car I own, but never been locked up or even given a ticket, why's that? Routine?
It's not just a few bad apples like people want you to believe, it's a shame because there are good ones, but they don't stand up to the bad ones, which is why I hope that in a couple of generations all the bad ones will be gone...
hyphen said:
Does he wear a hoodie with hood up everywhere? Or is he dressed normally.
As I'm suspicious of anyone who is wearing a hoodie up when it isn't cold/indoors. And 99% happen to be ethnic. But Im suspicious of anyone hiding their head like that weirdly, regardless of race
Dressed normally? As I'm suspicious of anyone who is wearing a hoodie up when it isn't cold/indoors. And 99% happen to be ethnic. But Im suspicious of anyone hiding their head like that weirdly, regardless of race
anonymous said:
[redacted]
White man. Former Soldier. Regularly in my youth got very drunk and engaged in behaviour which was criminal. Have never been stopped randomly by the police. Have never been pulled over. And don't feel the need to take ID with me unless work requires it. Went to the golf yesterday with no wallet. Went for a walk today with no wallet. I knew there would be no problem.
The fact is that your nephew has to behave differently to me because of the colour of his skin. A child shouldn't be conditioned on how to comply with the police if they are doing no wrong.
Some is perception and handed down experience through parents and peers - "the Police harassed people like us when we were young, so carry ID, etc..."
Some is stuff like dress choices - hoodie up over cap and walking around hunched raises suspicion regardless of skin tone.
Some is the propensity within inner city communities that happen to have a large black ethnicity population to carry knives and get involved in gang activity.
Some is prejudice on the part of individual officers.
And here lies the problem - it's a cluster of multiple factors all if which need to be solved individually to level the playing field.
It's not as simple as UK police being institutionally racist.
Some is stuff like dress choices - hoodie up over cap and walking around hunched raises suspicion regardless of skin tone.
Some is the propensity within inner city communities that happen to have a large black ethnicity population to carry knives and get involved in gang activity.
Some is prejudice on the part of individual officers.
And here lies the problem - it's a cluster of multiple factors all if which need to be solved individually to level the playing field.
It's not as simple as UK police being institutionally racist.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Does the black community not need to look at itself when looking at the prejudice of others? In an area where there is a genuine black on black problem, then I can see the reasons why cops would want to stop other black kids, even if just to check if theyre carrying to prevent them knifing each other. Is it racism? I'm sure there are equally as many chinese kids walking around London but as they dont have a history of stabbing each other to death, I'm sure they dont get half the amount of attention. IF they were institutionally racist, then surely all races other than the indigenous whites would be a target?I'd also be interested to see the stats on somewhere like Manchester or Newcastle which has a black population but not a black on black problem.
For a few bad apples, I'd say the British police are not racists and certainly do not have the issues the Americans appear to have.
racezimmer said:
Some is perception and handed down experience through parents and peers - "the Police harassed people like us when we were young, so carry ID, etc..."
Some is stuff like dress choices - hoodie up over cap and walking around hunched raises suspicion regardless of skin tone.
Some is the propensity within inner city communities that happen to have a large black ethnicity population to carry knives and get involved in gang activity.
Some is prejudice on the part of individual officers.
And here lies the problem - it's a cluster of multiple factors all if which need to be solved individually to level the playing field.
It's not as simple as UK police being institutionally racist.
My dad used to tell me stories about racism by police, how he was treated back in the day, if I'm honest I didn't really pay much attention till I was 15/16 and experienced it myself, and here I am in 2020 telling my son about it, how to look after himself if he's faced with the police. Some is stuff like dress choices - hoodie up over cap and walking around hunched raises suspicion regardless of skin tone.
Some is the propensity within inner city communities that happen to have a large black ethnicity population to carry knives and get involved in gang activity.
Some is prejudice on the part of individual officers.
And here lies the problem - it's a cluster of multiple factors all if which need to be solved individually to level the playing field.
It's not as simple as UK police being institutionally racist.
Dress choices are irrelevant, not agree with someone's dress sense is not a reason to stop/search someone.
Fully agree with the issues in the inner cities, I moved out of London, not for that reason, but that's a totally different conversation.
There is a lot of prejudice and ignorance on the part of officers, as I said there are good ones, and I'd wish they'd speak up but they rarely do. I'd argue that it still is institutionally racist, I honestly wish it wasn't, but it is.
No. My nephew is a copper working in Tower Hamlets, I've known him since the age of six, I also know his fiance who also works for the police and neither are the slightest bit racist.
Which is surprising with the amount of f
king st they have to deal with some of our culturally enriching members of British society.
Which is surprising with the amount of f
king st they have to deal with some of our culturally enriching members of British society. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff