Hitler in a video game?
Discussion
(First off, Mods: please leave this in NPE. Read on and you will see why)
Thought I'd post on PH about an interesting little political storm in a video game community and see what people think here.
For those of you that don't know it, the 'Civilization' franchise of games involve running a nation state from stone age beginnings through to the space age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_(series...
At the start of the game you select a nation (e.g. England) and play as the pre-selected leader (e.g. Queen Victoria); all nations/leaders having various unique gameplay traits. You then compete against other famous figures controlled by the game. Over the six versions of the game over the last ~30 years, almost every famous world leader/nation has featured, from the saints (Gandhi - albeit with a legendary predilection for nuclear weaponry!) to the sinners (Stalin, for example), except one:
Adolf Hitler.
Now and then the question is raised in game forums as to why Hitler hasn't featured as a leader of Germany. Now in a couple of the main Facebook fan pages the controversy has simply exploded, and as is the way in 2020 the method of dealing with this is to close any discussion about it down.
The arguments broadly range between:
What is sad this time round is the level of anger is off the scale; anyone (myself included) who try and suggest even a middle opinion between the two extremes above is branded a Nazi.
My own view FWIW is that he should feature in some future version, as we are already 75 years from his death, but the game should make him a figure of some mockery, and 'load the dice' against him by giving him some gameplay flaws.
Or that if fascism and dictatorship are so beyond the pale, the game should remove the ability to set up a fascist government (yes, that is a thing!) or play as other comparable dictators/murderers in the interests of consistency.
Anyway, TL;DR: should Hitler feature in a video game as a playable character?
Thought I'd post on PH about an interesting little political storm in a video game community and see what people think here.
For those of you that don't know it, the 'Civilization' franchise of games involve running a nation state from stone age beginnings through to the space age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_(series...
At the start of the game you select a nation (e.g. England) and play as the pre-selected leader (e.g. Queen Victoria); all nations/leaders having various unique gameplay traits. You then compete against other famous figures controlled by the game. Over the six versions of the game over the last ~30 years, almost every famous world leader/nation has featured, from the saints (Gandhi - albeit with a legendary predilection for nuclear weaponry!) to the sinners (Stalin, for example), except one:
Adolf Hitler.
Now and then the question is raised in game forums as to why Hitler hasn't featured as a leader of Germany. Now in a couple of the main Facebook fan pages the controversy has simply exploded, and as is the way in 2020 the method of dealing with this is to close any discussion about it down.
The arguments broadly range between:
- Hitler should feature, as there is no other historical leader who is excluded, including people such as Mao or Stalin, who many argue are as bad if not worse. Proponents seem to be arguing from a free speech viewpoint.
- Hitler should not feature as he is still too recent a figure, and still has some insidious ideological attraction which should be suppressed. Proponents seem to be arguing from an anti-fascist viewpoint.
What is sad this time round is the level of anger is off the scale; anyone (myself included) who try and suggest even a middle opinion between the two extremes above is branded a Nazi.
My own view FWIW is that he should feature in some future version, as we are already 75 years from his death, but the game should make him a figure of some mockery, and 'load the dice' against him by giving him some gameplay flaws.
Or that if fascism and dictatorship are so beyond the pale, the game should remove the ability to set up a fascist government (yes, that is a thing!) or play as other comparable dictators/murderers in the interests of consistency.
Anyway, TL;DR: should Hitler feature in a video game as a playable character?
I’m in the FFS it’s a video game, who gives a s
t who’s in it? Grown adults playing TV games, I can’t get my head around, tbh, and I suspect a lot of the ‘debate’ is from such people, not kids?
I know millions of adults do play them, but as I say, I just don’t get it at all!!
Stepping back from that, I suppose the question is, would Hollywood release a film with Hitler as the ‘star’, similar to the one with Churchill has a star a few years back? Probably not. And there may be legal restrictions on such a film in certain countries, isn’t there some law that restricts use of the Swashtika for example in some countries?
Perhaps the Skype of media has something to do with it? To have kids going to school bragging about how many Jews they gassed yesterday may not go down to well.
t who’s in it? Grown adults playing TV games, I can’t get my head around, tbh, and I suspect a lot of the ‘debate’ is from such people, not kids? I know millions of adults do play them, but as I say, I just don’t get it at all!!
Stepping back from that, I suppose the question is, would Hollywood release a film with Hitler as the ‘star’, similar to the one with Churchill has a star a few years back? Probably not. And there may be legal restrictions on such a film in certain countries, isn’t there some law that restricts use of the Swashtika for example in some countries?
Perhaps the Skype of media has something to do with it? To have kids going to school bragging about how many Jews they gassed yesterday may not go down to well.
Edited by poo at Paul's on Tuesday 28th July 08:32
poo at Paul's said:
suspect a lot of the ‘debate’ is from such people
I used to work in the games industry from the early 90s to about 2003, we'd get emails and letters exclaiming our driving games made people joyride, our FPS games made people violent.I really wanted to reply with we make tennis games too but your little darlings are not at f
king wimbledon.Of course he should be in it. This trend for editing history to fit a current agenda is troubling. By what measure do you decide that Stalin and Mao can be represented in the historical scope of the game but Hitler cannot?
I find much the same problem with censoring the Swastika on left wing platforms like YouTube. Obviously, someone with a swastika flag hung on their wall, spouting hate speech is unacceptable and probably shouldn't be on the platform (and neither should any form of hate speech, but not all hate speech is equal in the eyes of the likes of YouTube), but educational channels have had their videos removed for simply showing a swastika while talking about WWII.
Forgotten Weapons, a very good channel about the engineering and history of firearms, use a title card and video thumbnail featuring a picture of the gun and the flag of the nation (correct for the period) for the nation which produced the weapon. Despite Nazi Germany having played an enormous part in the advancement of technology in many fields, FW cannot show the flag of Germany from WWII because their videos get blocked for doing so.
Forgotten Weapons do not support nazism nor do they voice any political opinions in their videos, it's purely historical fact and engineering interest, but YouTube deem the idea of showing a nazi flag next to a gun designed and produced by nazis to be so corrupting that they will not allow it.
Nazis were terrible and any reasonable person would condemn their brutality, however they did not hold a monopoly on barbaric and inhumane practices and the fact that they existed should not be minimised or erased while other regimes go untouched by the whitewashing brush.
Also, Hitler was in Wolfenstein, which isn't historically accurate and I'm pretty sure he is in Hearts of Iron, which is somewhat historically accurate.
I find much the same problem with censoring the Swastika on left wing platforms like YouTube. Obviously, someone with a swastika flag hung on their wall, spouting hate speech is unacceptable and probably shouldn't be on the platform (and neither should any form of hate speech, but not all hate speech is equal in the eyes of the likes of YouTube), but educational channels have had their videos removed for simply showing a swastika while talking about WWII.
Forgotten Weapons, a very good channel about the engineering and history of firearms, use a title card and video thumbnail featuring a picture of the gun and the flag of the nation (correct for the period) for the nation which produced the weapon. Despite Nazi Germany having played an enormous part in the advancement of technology in many fields, FW cannot show the flag of Germany from WWII because their videos get blocked for doing so.
Forgotten Weapons do not support nazism nor do they voice any political opinions in their videos, it's purely historical fact and engineering interest, but YouTube deem the idea of showing a nazi flag next to a gun designed and produced by nazis to be so corrupting that they will not allow it.
Nazis were terrible and any reasonable person would condemn their brutality, however they did not hold a monopoly on barbaric and inhumane practices and the fact that they existed should not be minimised or erased while other regimes go untouched by the whitewashing brush.
Also, Hitler was in Wolfenstein, which isn't historically accurate and I'm pretty sure he is in Hearts of Iron, which is somewhat historically accurate.
It’s interesting though that there’s obviously a pecking order of murderous dictators in the game and Hitler is just going too far.
In the 70s and 80s Hitler and the Nazis were much more prevalent in popular culture but they seem to have become more sinister and verboten as time has gone on.
To me it’s about context, in (the game) civilisation you’re not glorifying Hitler or reenacting what he did, it’s about his historical significance.
Seems inconsistent to have Stalin etc but not Hitler but as said maybe it’s about German laws or something?
I remember when one of my sons was younger we got an airfix Battle of Britain model set to make and I noticed the German aircraft had all the nazi symbols missing. If you want to make the aircraft accurately you have to order swastikas from a third party. My wife was a bit confused when sheets of different scale swastikas appeared a few days later.
You see the same in German museums with aircraft and ships etc often missing the swastika.
In the 70s and 80s Hitler and the Nazis were much more prevalent in popular culture but they seem to have become more sinister and verboten as time has gone on.
To me it’s about context, in (the game) civilisation you’re not glorifying Hitler or reenacting what he did, it’s about his historical significance.
Seems inconsistent to have Stalin etc but not Hitler but as said maybe it’s about German laws or something?
I remember when one of my sons was younger we got an airfix Battle of Britain model set to make and I noticed the German aircraft had all the nazi symbols missing. If you want to make the aircraft accurately you have to order swastikas from a third party. My wife was a bit confused when sheets of different scale swastikas appeared a few days later.
You see the same in German museums with aircraft and ships etc often missing the swastika.
Sheets Tabuer said:
I used to work in the games industry from the early 90s to about 2003, we'd get emails and letters exclaiming our driving games made people joyride, our FPS games made people violent.
I really wanted to reply with we make tennis games too but your little darlings are not at fking wimbledon.
LolI really wanted to reply with we make tennis games too but your little darlings are not at f
king wimbledon.In Civ 4 or 5 isn't the German special unit the Panzer, and I'm sure there's something about Blitzkrieg, so it's not like they're shying away from WW2.
Hearts of Iron 4 has Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Donitz, etc as it has the whole top of the political structure. I assume HOI 5 has as well but I've not played it.
Hearts of Iron 4 has Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Donitz, etc as it has the whole top of the political structure. I assume HOI 5 has as well but I've not played it.
I believe he should be in it, or remove Stalin and Mao as it's double standards.
poo at Paul's said:
Grown adults playing TV games, I can’t get my head around, tbh, and I suspect a lot of the ‘debate’ is from such people, not kids?
You do know it's the biggest entertainment industry in the world and generates more money than the TV and Movie world? I can understand you not enjoying it, my wife is the same, but surely you must understand that other people do?Edited by poo at Paul's on Tuesday 28th July 08:32
From memory, you play as the leader of your chosen civilisation, no?
While there are still wannabe Nazis, it’s probably for the best they don’t get to role play as their icon. I assume that’s the argument against Hitler in the game.
The counter argument is surely that you play as a serial killer in pretty much any FPS, so where’s the harm?
Not sure I have any strong feeling on this, but I’d err towards not having Hitler conquering the world in a game.
While there are still wannabe Nazis, it’s probably for the best they don’t get to role play as their icon. I assume that’s the argument against Hitler in the game.
The counter argument is surely that you play as a serial killer in pretty much any FPS, so where’s the harm?
Not sure I have any strong feeling on this, but I’d err towards not having Hitler conquering the world in a game.
El stovey said:
Seems inconsistent to have Stalin etc but not Hitler but as said maybe it’s about German laws or something?
AFAICS the last time Stalin/Mao featured was in 2005 with Civilization IV. They're not in five and six (there are mods you can download though).It doesn't really make sense to feature Hitler/Stalin/Mao as leaders IMO because the vast majority of the game is pre-modern era.
Mastodon2 said:
Forgotten Weapons do not support nazism nor do they voice any political opinions in their videos, it's purely historical fact and engineering interest, but YouTube deem the idea of showing a nazi flag next to a gun designed and produced by nazis to be so corrupting that they will not allow it.
Same with people using a racial slur in the context of it being something you shouldn't say. The guy who was fired for telling someone not to call him the N word was reinstated but the Netflix executive who used it in the context of a quote, which compared it to the unacceptability of the term 'retard', was not.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff