Covid - is it time to let the virus run free?
Poll: Covid - is it time to let the virus run free?
Total Members Polled: 610
Discussion
WHSmith have said today they are letting go of 1,500 people, and this is the latest of many other employers announcements. Many of these people will be unable to find replacement jobs anytime soon.
Millions of small businesses are all but dead too.
The impacted people could soon struggle to pay their bills, feed themselves or even become homeless
Reduced tax coming in, so the government can only support them so much.
Should we adapt a strategy of increasing the governments advertising budget so the public are aware of all risks and then carry on? Scrap the 2m rule, persuade the employers to get office workers back in via incentives and get life back to normal. With masks and gloves and gallons of sanitizer if needed. Grant anyone classed as vulnerable medically the right to work from home.
And until such time as all the Nightingale Hospitals are near full, keep calm, take all precautions, accept it, and carry on?
Millions of small businesses are all but dead too.
The impacted people could soon struggle to pay their bills, feed themselves or even become homeless
Reduced tax coming in, so the government can only support them so much.Should we adapt a strategy of increasing the governments advertising budget so the public are aware of all risks and then carry on? Scrap the 2m rule, persuade the employers to get office workers back in via incentives and get life back to normal. With masks and gloves and gallons of sanitizer if needed. Grant anyone classed as vulnerable medically the right to work from home.
And until such time as all the Nightingale Hospitals are near full, keep calm, take all precautions, accept it, and carry on?
As unpopular as the idea might be, I think it's the right answer. The proportion of deaths due to COVID vs total deaths is now tiny. June death rate in total was below June 2019 or previous 5 year average. More people will now be suffering from undiagnosed other critical illnesses, mental health issues and unemployment. It's time to tackle those issues and to get the economy moving.
What I cannot understand about even raising a question like this is why anyone of us would seem to be more knowledgeable than basically every Govt / Scientific research company and institution, health dept etc in the world.
The seemed to think it was not a good idea to let it "run its course" back when it started, so why would the situation be any different now?
Some people genuinely seem to think this virus has gone away...! !
Whatever we all know about it 5 months in, we will know twice as much in another 2 months, and 10x as much in a year. But more clever people than I already knew enough to behave as they have done regarding unprecedented measures, and until it goes away, or is manageable with treatment and vaccines, its just not possible to let it run its course. Not with the infrastructure and social make up we all have / had without this virus being out there.
It's emergence and spread has been so rapid, we as human species have never experienced anything like it before, so we have to and indeed have already, act (ed) .
whilst I mourn the loss to anyone with a business in trouble, or job on the line, I firmly believe without the unprecedented measures taken including the help offered to all such businesses, losing an element of control over the virus will mean it is impossible to run any sort of business reliably. How can you when you don't know how many customers you may have in the next week or so, or even if you can get your supplies in. By intervening, Govt can control elements of that, prioritise resources etc, and if the result is / was, some customers have NO customers next week or for the next x many weeks, and we will all bail them out to keep the bills being paid for 6 months or so, well, that is the only real option, imo,
The seemed to think it was not a good idea to let it "run its course" back when it started, so why would the situation be any different now?
Some people genuinely seem to think this virus has gone away...! !
Whatever we all know about it 5 months in, we will know twice as much in another 2 months, and 10x as much in a year. But more clever people than I already knew enough to behave as they have done regarding unprecedented measures, and until it goes away, or is manageable with treatment and vaccines, its just not possible to let it run its course. Not with the infrastructure and social make up we all have / had without this virus being out there.
It's emergence and spread has been so rapid, we as human species have never experienced anything like it before, so we have to and indeed have already, act (ed) .
whilst I mourn the loss to anyone with a business in trouble, or job on the line, I firmly believe without the unprecedented measures taken including the help offered to all such businesses, losing an element of control over the virus will mean it is impossible to run any sort of business reliably. How can you when you don't know how many customers you may have in the next week or so, or even if you can get your supplies in. By intervening, Govt can control elements of that, prioritise resources etc, and if the result is / was, some customers have NO customers next week or for the next x many weeks, and we will all bail them out to keep the bills being paid for 6 months or so, well, that is the only real option, imo,
miniman said:
As unpopular as the idea might be, I think it's the right answer. The proportion of deaths due to COVID vs total deaths is now tiny. June death rate in total was below June 2019 or previous 5 year average. More people will now be suffering from undiagnosed other critical illnesses, mental health issues and unemployment. It's time to tackle those issues and to get the economy moving.
It is just impossible to base an uncontrolled future event on the stats emanating from a previous controlled event! It's like the schools woman saying today it is a fact that kids have a low level of catching covid and transmitting it, but ignoring the fact that that "fact" is after hardly any kid has been in school or mixing with mates for 4 months! And then using it as a reason for re-opening all the schools!
It's like banning alcohol and saying that since there have been a low level of drinks found since the ban, you can make alcohol legal again and there will be no drunks!
miniman said:
As unpopular as the idea might be, I think it's the right answer. The proportion of deaths due to COVID vs total deaths is now tiny. June death rate in total was below June 2019 or previous 5 year average. More people will now be suffering from undiagnosed other critical illnesses, mental health issues and unemployment. It's time to tackle those issues and to get the economy moving.
Its unpopular because the numbers could be staggering, does the current government want to be the one remembered to have voluntarily let a virus run rampant and lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths?I am not suggesting that we simply let the economy wither and unemployment skyrocket, we have to try and let the economy open as much as we can without exponential growth happening again. For this to work I think there would have to be sector specific support and rolling cycles of certain things being open and closed. Its one of the reasons I am so surprised by the push back from some quarters regarding masks, if there is even a small chance it would minimize spread of the virus and allow the economy to open up a little more then why would you not wear one?
The only thing I can think everyone can agree on is that we are thankful we don't have to make these decisions, there is no correct answer just varying levels of deaths/unemployment where no one will come out of it looking good.
Don Veloci said:
Yip.
Good face and hand hygiene, respecting space and making your own risk assessments about your daily activities and the vulnerable around you. Get on with life as normal, not new normal.
But you have already mentioned two things that were not "normal" for all before, ie spacing and hygiene. Try telling the millions of London commuters to get on with life as normal but to respect space! It is not possible, hence the "new normal" that you don't seem to want. Good face and hand hygiene, respecting space and making your own risk assessments about your daily activities and the vulnerable around you. Get on with life as normal, not new normal.
To a degree - yes. But with caveats.
1 - still encourage working from home where possible - whilst this may hurt the city centres it will reduce transmission on public transport.
2 - encourage social distancing and localisation - get everything open but encourage everyone to use their local amenities (20% off if you have proof of local address - happens in some places in Cornwall already) .
3 - local alerts - more information about local infection rates to let you decide on your level of risk you are comfortable with.
4 - focus on "hospitalised" covid-19 numbers as keeping the NHS coping should be the goal not stopping the spread.
This will lead to more cases in the short term but more manageable.
1 - still encourage working from home where possible - whilst this may hurt the city centres it will reduce transmission on public transport.
2 - encourage social distancing and localisation - get everything open but encourage everyone to use their local amenities (20% off if you have proof of local address - happens in some places in Cornwall already) .
3 - local alerts - more information about local infection rates to let you decide on your level of risk you are comfortable with.
4 - focus on "hospitalised" covid-19 numbers as keeping the NHS coping should be the goal not stopping the spread.
This will lead to more cases in the short term but more manageable.
poo at Paul's said:
It's emergence and spread has been so rapid, we as human species have never experienced anything like it before, so we have to and indeed have already, act
A bit of hyperbole there methinks. Black death killed 1 in 3 or was it on in 4 of the population of Europe. So far Covid has killed 1:1000 in the UK.Spanish flu?
Winter/Spring death rate this year is only the 8th worst in the last 25 years.
https://hectordrummond.com/2020/07/17/another-jaw-...
Shield the vulnerable and let it rip to get to herd immunity.
Absolutely yes. Its very clear who is and who isn't at risk . And also that many people will have had it and don't even know.
We can't go on destroying all of our lives.
Keep social distancing guidelines though, and encourage behaviours that minimise risk of spread. Time for adults to be adults .
We can't go on destroying all of our lives.
Keep social distancing guidelines though, and encourage behaviours that minimise risk of spread. Time for adults to be adults .
Edited by covmutley on Wednesday 5th August 14:48
Edited by covmutley on Wednesday 5th August 14:53
poo at Paul's said:
It's like the schools woman saying today it is a fact that kids have a low level of catching covid and transmitting it, but ignoring the fact that that "fact" is after hardly any kid has been in school or mixing with mates for 4 months!
You obviously don't live near me then. Kids have been mixing as normal in the streets and parks since lockdown was lifted. No local spikes here.Sweden never shut the schools and haven't done any worse than us.
When considering this question, maybe think as the people that actually make the decisions have to think. Think about the apparent fact that only about 7% of the UK has contracted this so far, (once), and for them, there's still no proven immunity and if there is, no idea how long it lasts. We have no proof as to if you can catch it again and if so, if you suffer more, or less.
All the young fit billy big balls who say "yes, let it run its course" have not a f
king clue what it's course will be, in either direction or length!! Sadly that's stuff that only the people that actually make important decisions have to consider. There's huge swathes of the population who cannot see any further than their next night out, pay cheque or holiday, and of course they don't have to, there's lots of people thinking about all the other stuff, for them!
All the young fit billy big balls who say "yes, let it run its course" have not a f
king clue what it's course will be, in either direction or length!! Sadly that's stuff that only the people that actually make important decisions have to consider. There's huge swathes of the population who cannot see any further than their next night out, pay cheque or holiday, and of course they don't have to, there's lots of people thinking about all the other stuff, for them! I'm torn. The world is over populated with fkwits and imbeciles, but unfortunately these are not the people who tend to die.
My parents and in laws are frail, and getting the virus would kill them.
Some might suggest, they haven't got long left, and letting the population take a chance might solve the pension and care budget crisis.
My parents are upset, because they are in Wales, and they want to visit, after the 16th August, and I've put my foot down. No fking way. My mother has no concept of basic food hygiene, and I don't want to eat out in a restaurant or risk her contaminating our house.
The loss of jobs is bad. I've had no work for 14 weeks. And have been living on £1500 a month between 2 of us, paying a mortgage of £800.
It's stressful and worrying, but until there is a vaccine, I think we need to accept that the world is on hold, for some people.
kwits and imbeciles, but unfortunately these are not the people who tend to die. My parents and in laws are frail, and getting the virus would kill them.
Some might suggest, they haven't got long left, and letting the population take a chance might solve the pension and care budget crisis.
My parents are upset, because they are in Wales, and they want to visit, after the 16th August, and I've put my foot down. No f
king way. My mother has no concept of basic food hygiene, and I don't want to eat out in a restaurant or risk her contaminating our house. The loss of jobs is bad. I've had no work for 14 weeks. And have been living on £1500 a month between 2 of us, paying a mortgage of £800.
It's stressful and worrying, but until there is a vaccine, I think we need to accept that the world is on hold, for some people.
This is fast-becoming the next Brexit-style debate.
Hyperbole will come thick and fast, verifiable facts will come much more slowly and be so twisted by the bias of whichever media outlet is reporting them as to make an accurate assessment impossible.
Meanwhile, we continue to believe whatever confirms our outlook and insult each other over our attitudes towards the virus.
Hyperbole will come thick and fast, verifiable facts will come much more slowly and be so twisted by the bias of whichever media outlet is reporting them as to make an accurate assessment impossible.
Meanwhile, we continue to believe whatever confirms our outlook and insult each other over our attitudes towards the virus.
Maybe - if it was possible to rely on people acting responsibly and (slightly) changing behaviour and habits - but I don't know whether that's realistic. You only need to look on some of the other threads on here to see the attitudes/resistance to some measures.
Here in Belgium the reopening of cafés and restaurants was linked to the requirement of providing a name and telephone number (or email address) to be used for contact tracing if necessary. On the lunchtime news today they said that in some places, the names of the Belgian Prime Minister and the Mayor of Antwerp (also a well-known political figure) appear regularly.
I can appreciate that it will be difficult for the owners or their staff to check every one, and that they won't want to refuse entry having been closed for so long. It's unrealistic to expect them to police the system anyway, but if we don't all work together, it may take longer to get through.
Here in Belgium the reopening of cafés and restaurants was linked to the requirement of providing a name and telephone number (or email address) to be used for contact tracing if necessary. On the lunchtime news today they said that in some places, the names of the Belgian Prime Minister and the Mayor of Antwerp (also a well-known political figure) appear regularly.
I can appreciate that it will be difficult for the owners or their staff to check every one, and that they won't want to refuse entry having been closed for so long. It's unrealistic to expect them to police the system anyway, but if we don't all work together, it may take longer to get through.
poo at Paul's said:
When considering this question, maybe think as the people that actually make the decisions have to think. Think about the apparent fact that only about 7% of the UK has contracted this so far, (once), and for them, there's still no proven immunity and if there is, no idea how long it lasts. We have no proof as to if you can catch it again and if so, if you suffer more, or less.
All the young fit billy big balls who say "yes, let it run its course" have not a fking clue what it's course will be, in either direction or length!! Sadly that's stuff that only the people that actually make important decisions have to consider. There's huge swathes of the population who cannot see any further than their next night out, pay cheque or holiday, and of course they don't have to, there's lots of people thinking about all the other stuff, for them!
You can only see "the cold that will fAll the young fit billy big balls who say "yes, let it run its course" have not a f
king clue what it's course will be, in either direction or length!! Sadly that's stuff that only the people that actually make important decisions have to consider. There's huge swathes of the population who cannot see any further than their next night out, pay cheque or holiday, and of course they don't have to, there's lots of people thinking about all the other stuff, for them! king kill you", you've not got a fking clue what the economic devastation is going to do to society.If you are happy for on the order of 5 % of the population to die, and probably a similar if not bigger to have long-term life-shortening and quality of life diminishing conditions then yeah, ok, go for it.
1 in 20 of the people you know to die, everyone to know a couple to several people who used to be fit and healthy with cardio-pulmonary conditions or kidney problems, and all of the societal and economic costs those entail.
You cannot ethically conduct an uncontrolled science experiment in infecting the entire population with a novel infectious agent with unknown long term health conditions.
You also cannot just pause or stop the economy or society.
The only answer is balance, and to play the two off against each other. Ultimately, companies and industries can be reformed, if we keep the individuals with the expertise and access to sources of capital. the expertise of people who die is gone. Life is more precious than corporations.
1 in 20 of the people you know to die, everyone to know a couple to several people who used to be fit and healthy with cardio-pulmonary conditions or kidney problems, and all of the societal and economic costs those entail.
You cannot ethically conduct an uncontrolled science experiment in infecting the entire population with a novel infectious agent with unknown long term health conditions.
You also cannot just pause or stop the economy or society.
The only answer is balance, and to play the two off against each other. Ultimately, companies and industries can be reformed, if we keep the individuals with the expertise and access to sources of capital. the expertise of people who die is gone. Life is more precious than corporations.
I don't think we're going to 'save' the high street retail sector. They were in trouble before and now they're fked. I don't know what we do about this but I'm not 100% convinced that the 2m rule or perceived risks have a massive amount to do with it. My feeling is that people were gradually moving to doing almost everything online anyway and a lot of shopping was habit. This habit's changed now and without massive incentives people aren't going back.
Why are we getting office workers back in? Some jobs can't be done from home. A lot can and this includes the vast majority of office work. Why don't we embrace this?
ked. I don't know what we do about this but I'm not 100% convinced that the 2m rule or perceived risks have a massive amount to do with it. My feeling is that people were gradually moving to doing almost everything online anyway and a lot of shopping was habit. This habit's changed now and without massive incentives people aren't going back.Why are we getting office workers back in? Some jobs can't be done from home. A lot can and this includes the vast majority of office work. Why don't we embrace this?
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