German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand
Discussion
Interesting story. Should we demand that anyone who wishes to become a citizen of our country accepts certain cultural norms?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/18/german...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/18/german...
I guess it depends who gets to define the cultural norms, how would you even go about doing that in a multi cultural society in the west nowadays?
In this specific case though, the doctor seems like a perfectly good candidate for citizenship to me. He simply had a religious belief that meant he had promised not to "take the hand" of another woman after he married. It seems however that because it was a gender specific belief it was deemed as something incompatible with German citizenship. There is nothing to suggest he has ever shown the slightest disrespect or ill-treatment of anyone in the bits I read, simply that he didn't want physical contact.
Could he have been a little bit less literal in his beliefs? Yes, of course. Should the citizenship people have been a bit more tolerant? Yes, of course.
In this specific case though, the doctor seems like a perfectly good candidate for citizenship to me. He simply had a religious belief that meant he had promised not to "take the hand" of another woman after he married. It seems however that because it was a gender specific belief it was deemed as something incompatible with German citizenship. There is nothing to suggest he has ever shown the slightest disrespect or ill-treatment of anyone in the bits I read, simply that he didn't want physical contact.
Could he have been a little bit less literal in his beliefs? Yes, of course. Should the citizenship people have been a bit more tolerant? Yes, of course.
bstb3 said:
I guess it depends who gets to define the cultural norms, how would you even go about doing that in a multi cultural society in the west nowadays?
In this specific case though, the doctor seems like a perfectly good candidate for citizenship to me. He simply had a religious belief that meant he had promised not to "take the hand" of another woman after he married. It seems however that because it was a gender specific belief it was deemed as something incompatible with German citizenship. There is nothing to suggest he has ever shown the slightest disrespect or ill-treatment of anyone in the bits I read, simply that he didn't want physical contact.
Could he have been a little bit less literal in his beliefs? Yes, of course. Should the citizenship people have been a bit more tolerant? Yes, of course.
Pretty much sums it up for me.In this specific case though, the doctor seems like a perfectly good candidate for citizenship to me. He simply had a religious belief that meant he had promised not to "take the hand" of another woman after he married. It seems however that because it was a gender specific belief it was deemed as something incompatible with German citizenship. There is nothing to suggest he has ever shown the slightest disrespect or ill-treatment of anyone in the bits I read, simply that he didn't want physical contact.
Could he have been a little bit less literal in his beliefs? Yes, of course. Should the citizenship people have been a bit more tolerant? Yes, of course.
Mostly my reaction is 'Meh' and 'Their gafff, their rules' but it just seems that both sides are being slightly silly.
coolg said:
Why should a country granting citizenship, be more accommodating ? Their rules are their rules, they are hardly complicated and shaking hands isn’t going to kill the guy
Yep, that's fine and that's what's happened. If that is how they want to run things it's fine and suspect it is more to do with an overall cultural thing going on than this chap in particularLike I say though, if one of the principles we would expect of people coming to a country is one of tolerance it's a bit of an odd way to demonstrate it over something so comparatively minor. Especially when the chap in question seems perfectly respectable in every other way. Do as we say, not as we do?
It's just where do you draw the line, I guess, with those 'rules'. Tolerance, equality, respect for rule of law, education, democracy, free speech, protection of children, animals etc. These are all fine principles that can be applied to any requirement of citizenship (there are many others I am sure). Taking it down to "must shake hands when requested"? Where do you stop?
coolg said:
Why should a country granting citizenship, be more accommodating ? Their rules are their rules, they are hardly complicated and shaking hands isn’t going to kill the guy
Would a Muslim who was born in Germany be forced to shake hands with a woman?If not, then it's not a case of being more accommodating, it's about being equally accommodating.
SpeckledJim said:
If he was an accountant, I'd be a bit more on his side.
But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
Whatever job he will or wont do is irrelevant. His view that women are clearly second class is very relevant. He has no place in western society with these views. Based on his approach to women I'm sure he has a very interesting views on gay people as well. But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
thewarlock said:
coolg said:
Why should a country granting citizenship, be more accommodating ? Their rules are their rules, they are hardly complicated and shaking hands isn’t going to kill the guy
Would a Muslim who was born in Germany be forced to shake hands with a woman?If not, then it's not a case of being more accommodating, it's about being equally accommodating.
I could have a criminal record and live happily in the UK, yet be disqualified from emigrating here from another country, were I to be a different nationality but have the same criminal record.
The whole point of a 'points based' immigration scheme is that you ensure that you import people who will improve us. Implicit in that is a judgment that some people don't make the standard. And of course, some of your existing citizens wouldn't meet that same standard, if they had to apply.
SpeckledJim said:
If he was an accountant, I'd be a bit more on his side.
But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
How can he treat females if he refuses to touch them. Or is it only hands he can't touch But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
https://www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenshi...
I'm also hugely impressed that the judge called out Salafism as running contrary to German culture and the interactions between men and woman
My father was muslim. I am not, nor is my English mother.
We celebrated Christmas, it was a big thing for him and he would often invite the neighbours and local community over for a drink on Xmas morning/Boxing Day, and yes, he drank too.
He understood the Islamic edict of joining into the culture you find yourself living in. An edict that goes un-heeded these days by too many, as Monsieur Paty found out last week.
dw.com said:
Handshakes 'deeply rooted' in German culture
The VGH described a handshake as a common nonverbal greeting and farewell ritual, which are independent of the sex of the involved parties, adding that the practice goes back centuries.
The judge found that the handshake also has a legal meaning, in that it symbolizes the conclusion of a contract.
The handshake is therefore "deeply rooted in social, cultural and legal life, which shapes the way we live together," the judge said.
Fair enough. Their country, their rules. The VGH described a handshake as a common nonverbal greeting and farewell ritual, which are independent of the sex of the involved parties, adding that the practice goes back centuries.
The judge found that the handshake also has a legal meaning, in that it symbolizes the conclusion of a contract.
The handshake is therefore "deeply rooted in social, cultural and legal life, which shapes the way we live together," the judge said.
I'm also hugely impressed that the judge called out Salafism as running contrary to German culture and the interactions between men and woman
dw.com said:
The court found that anyone who refuses to shake hands on gender-specific grounds is in breach of the equality enshrined in the German constitution.
In addition, the man's refusal in this case had the effect of lending validity to a "Salafist perspective" on the social ramifications of relations between men and women.
In addition, the man's refusal in this case had the effect of lending validity to a "Salafist perspective" on the social ramifications of relations between men and women.
irc said:
Should we demand that anyone who wishes to become a citizen of our country accepts certain cultural norms?
Yes. My father was muslim. I am not, nor is my English mother.
We celebrated Christmas, it was a big thing for him and he would often invite the neighbours and local community over for a drink on Xmas morning/Boxing Day, and yes, he drank too.
He understood the Islamic edict of joining into the culture you find yourself living in. An edict that goes un-heeded these days by too many, as Monsieur Paty found out last week.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th October 12:50
SpeckledJim said:
If he was an accountant, I'd be a bit more on his side.
But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
No. Absolutely not. He should be struck off Germany's medical register.But can a doctor who won't lay a hand on a woman claim to be treating all his patients, male and female, to the best of his ability?
Edited by Dromedary66 on Monday 19th October 12:53
Sam.M said:
Yes.
My father was muslim. I am not, nor is my English mother.
We celebrated Christmas, it was a big thing for him and he would often invite the neighbours and local community over for a drink on Xmas morning/Boxing Day, and yes, he drank too.
He understood the Islamic edict of joining into the culture you find yourself living in. An edict that goes un-heeded these days by too many, as Monsieur Paty found out last week.
Interesting. Matches my experience. My uncle is a muslim from Libya. Back in the 70s the family lived in Libya but spent summers in Scotland. My uncle was a quiet man who met my aunt at university in the 60s. When in Scotland I don't think he attended the mosque and took a dram and a bacon sandwich. So absolutely not a strict inflexible muslim. My father was muslim. I am not, nor is my English mother.
We celebrated Christmas, it was a big thing for him and he would often invite the neighbours and local community over for a drink on Xmas morning/Boxing Day, and yes, he drank too.
He understood the Islamic edict of joining into the culture you find yourself living in. An edict that goes un-heeded these days by too many, as Monsieur Paty found out last week.
Edited by Sam.M on Monday 19th October 12:50
But even he thought some people were a bit extreme. One time back in the late 1970s a cousin of his who at the time was living in London wanted to visit him.. I don't know the details but something made my uncle concerned.. He spoke to my mum for advice and she in turn spoke to a friend she happened to know in Special Branch. He told her not to worry.
Shortly after the visit which went ahead with no issues he spoke to my mum and said "I hear it went OK." Then added "she Lilian (my aunt) doesn't hang about in her car does she?" They had followed her when she and my uncle picked up his cousin from the airport.
My uncle wasn't religious or political. After years of travelling in and out for business and family reasons He ended up emigrating when it looked like the Gaddaffi regieme was going to prevent him leaving at all.
The only cultural difference was that as teenagers my uncle did not allow his daughter to have boyfriends. Though in practice I think it was don't ask don't tell.
It's a strange one.
What would happen if there was a female, atheist immigrant who didn't like to shake hands with men simply because she didn't like men. Would she get knocked back?
Is there a distinction between who the immigrant is or why they're making the choice not to shake hands?
That's not to say I'm enraged by this or anything, nor judging either party, just intrigued to know more.
What would happen if there was a female, atheist immigrant who didn't like to shake hands with men simply because she didn't like men. Would she get knocked back?
Is there a distinction between who the immigrant is or why they're making the choice not to shake hands?
That's not to say I'm enraged by this or anything, nor judging either party, just intrigued to know more.
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