The Brexit - Scottish Indy paradox.
Discussion
First of all, I'm a Scot living in England who thinks that Scotland should be independent and Brexit, whilst I can understand the reasons behind it, I just can't agree with.
I'm also making an assumption that most folk who would vote for Scottish Indy voted Remain and those who support the Union voted for Brexit
It strikes me that if you advocate for Indy/Remain that you champion the same argument for Union/Brexit and vice versa.
Delving into the two main threads in NP&E would appear to support that hypothesis.
The upcoming Holyrood elections will be fascinating as there is no absolutely no doubt that Sturgeon's goal is for Indy and EU membership.
I'm also making an assumption that most folk who would vote for Scottish Indy voted Remain and those who support the Union voted for Brexit
It strikes me that if you advocate for Indy/Remain that you champion the same argument for Union/Brexit and vice versa.
Delving into the two main threads in NP&E would appear to support that hypothesis.
The upcoming Holyrood elections will be fascinating as there is no absolutely no doubt that Sturgeon's goal is for Indy and EU membership.
I find it odd that Scotland (Sturgeon/Blackford) would campaign to be part of the EU at the expense of the break up of the UK and the disruption/harm that would cause. Being English, I'm ambivalent at best but I do believe an independent Scotland should be exactly that which means generating its own income, paying for its own services, without any help from UK tax payers.
It does seem likely that there will eventually be another but projecting post-Brexit sentiment onto the result of that may not be helpful in forecasting any outcome. Conversations and preferences change over time so the arguments will be won on the merits of that moment.
Also Sturgeon will have to contend with the fact that all the EU would say would be "they would have to apply" so her argument would have to primarily be about leaving the UK and not joining the EU. The EU regard it as an internal matter for the UK.
Also Sturgeon will have to contend with the fact that all the EU would say would be "they would have to apply" so her argument would have to primarily be about leaving the UK and not joining the EU. The EU regard it as an internal matter for the UK.
There is no other rational explanation for the SNP's position vis a vis Brussels vs Westminster than Anglophobia.
Also to be noted that the SNP was not always so pro-European as it is now, in fact quite the contrary. Its simply a case that if Westminster/England says Black, the SNP will say White.
When Scotland voted to stay in the UK and hitched itself to the UK train in 2014 it did so in the certain knowledge of two things:
a) Leaving the UK at that time would result in leaving the EU (apparently this was OK with the SNP/nats at the time)
b) There was to be a UK wide referendum on EU membership in 2016 which the UK government had committed to uphold the result of.
All the "taken out against our will" rubbish is just baloney Nationalist "Cake & Eat it" divisive nonsense from people who lost not one but two votes.
Scotland has nothing to complain about IMO, it has the best of all worlds "despite Brexit"
Also to be noted that the SNP was not always so pro-European as it is now, in fact quite the contrary. Its simply a case that if Westminster/England says Black, the SNP will say White.
When Scotland voted to stay in the UK and hitched itself to the UK train in 2014 it did so in the certain knowledge of two things:
a) Leaving the UK at that time would result in leaving the EU (apparently this was OK with the SNP/nats at the time)
b) There was to be a UK wide referendum on EU membership in 2016 which the UK government had committed to uphold the result of.
All the "taken out against our will" rubbish is just baloney Nationalist "Cake & Eat it" divisive nonsense from people who lost not one but two votes.
Scotland has nothing to complain about IMO, it has the best of all worlds "despite Brexit"
speedy_thrills said:
It does seem likely that there will eventually be another but projecting post-Brexit sentiment onto the result of that may not be helpful in forecasting any outcome. Conversations and preferences change over time so the arguments will be won on the merits of that moment.
Also Sturgeon will have to contend with the fact that all the EU would say would be "they would have to apply" so her argument would have to primarily be about leaving the UK and not joining the EU. The EU regard it as an internal matter for the UK.
And why would the EU want another country/member to prop up? Without the rest of the UK, you've got an economy that cannot wash its own face, especially if we keep North Sea gas and oil. Also Sturgeon will have to contend with the fact that all the EU would say would be "they would have to apply" so her argument would have to primarily be about leaving the UK and not joining the EU. The EU regard it as an internal matter for the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-brie...
Andrew Neil interviewed the former SNP finance spokesperson on their claims/plans for independence:
https://youtu.be/MJiq3Y4c4C0
Lots of hopes, wishes and dreams oh and “we will see”
https://youtu.be/MJiq3Y4c4C0
Lots of hopes, wishes and dreams oh and “we will see”
Only those who slave themselves to thier identity politics, real world people were a lot more nuanced i found
I did question at the time how scottish independence can be defended by those insisting "because thick racists" is the only allowable explanation for UK independence sentiment, still awaiting the answer though, people don't like saying "because that's what I'm told to think".
I did question at the time how scottish independence can be defended by those insisting "because thick racists" is the only allowable explanation for UK independence sentiment, still awaiting the answer though, people don't like saying "because that's what I'm told to think".
Scottish Nationalist Party - call them what they are. They are anti-British, anti-English with a huge chip on their shoulder. Would cut off their nose to spite their face.
It’s clear to see they have just one motivation in everything they do - little concern for the impact on the scottish people. They are a disgrace. Sturgeon and Blackford should be ashamed of themselves.
It’s clear to see they have just one motivation in everything they do - little concern for the impact on the scottish people. They are a disgrace. Sturgeon and Blackford should be ashamed of themselves.
I think Boris should give Scotland a 3 year dry run
And then a referendum at the next election,
Work out the cost of setting up all the stuff that
Scotland would need , police, fire army health ,ambulance , currency etc then deduct all of that from the Scottish tax take if there is a short fall then levy additional taxes to cover it over the 3 years
also get quotes for building a border wall and customs posts and a yearly cost for running it ..
And then a referendum at the next election,
Work out the cost of setting up all the stuff that
Scotland would need , police, fire army health ,ambulance , currency etc then deduct all of that from the Scottish tax take if there is a short fall then levy additional taxes to cover it over the 3 years
also get quotes for building a border wall and customs posts and a yearly cost for running it ..
LotusMartin said:
Scottish Nationalist Party - call them what they are. They are anti-British, anti-English with a huge chip on their shoulder. Would cut off their nose to spite their face.
It’s clear to see they have just one motivation in everything they do - little concern for the impact on the scottish people. They are a disgrace. Sturgeon and Blackford should be ashamed of themselves.
Anti-British 100%, don't think there is anything wrong with that. Anti English i wouldn't say so. I know and worked with Geordies, Scousers and Mancs who are more anti English/British/Westminster than the SNP are!It’s clear to see they have just one motivation in everything they do - little concern for the impact on the scottish people. They are a disgrace. Sturgeon and Blackford should be ashamed of themselves.
Scotland think too much of themselves, they were defeated, they became part of the UK. For 6 million odd people it is a mistake the money wasted for Krankie to keep going on, make them England and they can finally STFU and just get on with it.
They forget as well that England WILL always have ultimate power over all their actions as it always has..
They forget as well that England WILL always have ultimate power over all their actions as it always has..
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 1st January 15:11
TheFungle said:
I'm also making an assumption that most folk who would vote for Scottish Indy voted Remain and those who support the Union voted for Brexit
...
It strikes me that if you advocate for Indy/Remain that you champion the same argument for Union/Brexit and vice versa.
Also a Scot living In England. I suspect there is some truth in both of those statements but I cannot rationalise them in the way, I think, you are putting them. Why would SNP supporters want to be independent from rUK but subject to rules and regs from Brussels? It makes no sense from a ‘wanting to go it alone and govern our own destiny’ POV....
It strikes me that if you advocate for Indy/Remain that you champion the same argument for Union/Brexit and vice versa.
I can only assume that people feel driven to change their mind on the Indy issue solely because they are so against Brexit and they see independence as an opportunity to get back in to the EU, i.e. they are unionists at heart.
eliot said:
Andrew Neil interviewed the former SNP finance spokesperson on their claims/plans for independence:
https://youtu.be/MJiq3Y4c4C0
Lots of hopes, wishes and dreams oh and “we will see”
From a purely financial aspect, post the last referendum it was accepted that the estimates of North Sea oil revenue were overstated by approximately 10 times (estimate vary, that is about an average). Not 10 per cent, 10 times.https://youtu.be/MJiq3Y4c4C0
Lots of hopes, wishes and dreams oh and “we will see”
TheFungle said:
I'm also making an assumption that most folk who would vote for Scottish Indy voted Remain and those who support the Union voted for Brexit
While I agree with your assumptions, these are fundamentally irreconcilable arguments (unless you take into account the nationalist / xenophobe issue in each case, then it all makes sense).powerstroke said:
I think Boris should give Scotland a 3 year dry run
And then a referendum at the next election,
Work out the cost of setting up all the stuff that
Scotland would need , police, fire army health ,ambulance , currency etc then deduct all of that from the Scottish tax take if there is a short fall then levy additional taxes to cover it over the 3 years
also get quotes for building a border wall and customs posts and a yearly cost for running it ..
And then a referendum at the next election,
Work out the cost of setting up all the stuff that
Scotland would need , police, fire army health ,ambulance , currency etc then deduct all of that from the Scottish tax take if there is a short fall then levy additional taxes to cover it over the 3 years
also get quotes for building a border wall and customs posts and a yearly cost for running it ..
Given 60% of their trade is with us, 20% with EU (tariff free) and 20% RoW they appear to be in a good position right now.
If they left, they'd have to renegotiate 80% of their trade terms.
I get the Brexit parallels, but (IMO) there were (potential) benefits to Brexit. I dont think there are any for Scexit, apart from independence for independence sake. Which of course, is enough for many
Edit
This would fit well in the current SNP thread.....
If they left, they'd have to renegotiate 80% of their trade terms.
I get the Brexit parallels, but (IMO) there were (potential) benefits to Brexit. I dont think there are any for Scexit, apart from independence for independence sake. Which of course, is enough for many
Edit
This would fit well in the current SNP thread.....
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