Is immigration beneficial?

[Esceptico]

Now the U.K. has more control over its borders following Brexit it could limit immigration. Whether that will happen and to what extent is open to debate, especially as most immigrants (including second and third generations) have traditionally come from outside the EU. Given how much the U.K. has changed then any limitations going forward probably won’t make a huge difference.

There are positives and negatives from immigration.

Clearly immigration is generally beneficial for immigrants. I’ve spent most of my adult life living and working outside the U.K. (currently in NZ) and it has been a huge positive for me. Also my wife and closest friends are second generation Indians so without immigration my life would have been very different (and poorer).

For U.K. plc immigration is probably a big benefit as we have been able to attract professionals (doctors), tradesmen (builders) and unskilled Labour (fruit pickers, carers, etc). Perhaps not as beneficial for the existing labour force though as immigration probably keeps wages down and doesn’t encourage training (why train your own doctors if you can poach them from other countries?)

Although I’m pro immigration and can see many benefits part of me does feel that we have lost something too. For better or worse the U.K. had a unique culture. Just read literature from before the 60s or watch old films (or better old newsreels) for evidence. It would be easy to criticise the past using today’s standards eg class-ridden, racist, misogynistic etc but there were positives too eg I think in many places there was a greater community spirit and people were more willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

I’m probably being nostalgic but some aspects of U.K. culture seem to have disappeared or been replaced. John Cleese was heavily criticised for saying that London no longer felt like London but I can understand where he is coming from.

Of course the US has a big cultural impact on the U.K. without any real immigration from the US.

I’m a bit obsessed with the Japanese and Japan. They seem to have a very different approach. Although on the surface Japan is very modern they seem much more tied into their traditional culture. Most places you go to in the West seem more and more similar these days but Japan definitely feels very different. Having said that there are some definite problems in Japanese society.

There doesn’t appear to have been any long term plan with respect to immigration in the past 50 years. Not sure that will change going forward either.

[markcoznottz]

It’s hard to reverse engineer and say what if. However, it has to be said, in the early 90’s there didn’t seem to be a shortage of taxi drivers and bricklayers.

[johnboy1975]

Yes immigration is beneficial.

And controlled immigration is far better than "just turn up if you fancy it (if you are from an EU member state)" IMO

Even if it means nothing (objectively) changes. Which it won't. And remainers will say "well that was pointless then". And completely miss the point.....

[anonymous-user]

My life has been enriched a great deal by immigration but also, through my work, I've seen the damage caused by temporary 'cheap' immigration.

Immigration is great when people come with a dream because, when they make that dream come true, they often make it true for us all.

The other side of immigration is that, done right, it can break down barriers and it's a way of forming new links between nations.

Voted leave, if that is any way relevant.

[Funny username]

Yes.

[166 MM Barchetta]

Brexit was it worth it, now this...... good grief......

[anonymous-user]

166 MM Barchetta said:

Brexit was it worth it, now this...... good grief......

Johnboy1975 says it quite succinctly a few posts up, IMO. That it's worth it but that the argument for some was never actually about stopping immigration but more about having more control to try to make immigration work better for us.

Example from my personal experience. Building gangs from Poland and Bulgaria. Living over here in doss-houses, not spending much of what they earn here in our economy, here for maybe 5 years, earn quite a few quid, take it home and invest it there instead. But while they're here they bring down the quality of the work so badly, absolutely shocking! These were supposedly high-end projects. They displace British workers because they're cheaper and work hard but their quality of work was just not up to scratch.
(Added note, I've also worked with some fabulous immigrant construction teams from Poland, Hungary etc, so not all bad).
Poland and Bulgaria again - I've met and worked with bright young people from both countries. This has given me the chance to go there too and I travelled Europe with a Bulgarian. We have friends who have married people from there; some have stayed here and some have moved there.

It can be good, it can be bad. I'd like to be able to cherry-pick, to be honest!

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 3rd January 23:13

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 4th January 12:35

[Murph7355]

The figures I've seen reported suggest a slight economic benefit. I can roll with that, though logically fully controlled immigration should improve upon that.

Culturally, on balance, I think the answer is more of a "yes", though we have to be careful.

Our colonial past, and general explorative nature historically made much of this inevitable I suspect.

Esceptico said:

....
I’m a bit obsessed with the Japanese and Japan. They seem to have a very different approach. Although on the surface Japan is very modern they seem much more tied into their traditional culture. Most places you go to in the West seem more and more similar these days but Japan definitely feels very different. Having said that there are some definite problems in Japanese society. ...

I had the pleasure of a few stints in Japan between 1997 and 2005 (a couple of years all tolled). Even over that period Japan was becoming much more "Westernised". Personally I didn't think for the better, but as a Westerner that's a pretty tricky position to take

I aim to take my family there at some point in the future - I absolutely love the place and the people are top notch. Their society seemed much more...."respectful" than ours, my perception being that we're on a severe downward trajectory on that front. Things haven't improved.

[alabbasi]

In general, Yes. The people who get up and leave their countries seeking for a better life are generally better skilled, harder working and more ambitious than those who sit on their rear moaning about how hard their life is and why it's the fault of someone else.

[Esceptico]

166 MM Barchetta said:

Brexit was it worth it, now this...... good grief......

You have perhaps wandered into a forum for discussion by mistake? Or why else are you here?

You are free to start your own threads if you don’t like those started by others.

[166 MM Barchetta]

Esceptico said:

166 MM Barchetta said:

Brexit was it worth it, now this...... good grief......

You have perhaps wandered into a forum for discussion by mistake? Or why else are you here?

You are free to start your own threads if you don’t like those started by others.

I’m very clear on my reading thank you.
Why would you start a thread if you appear to be uncomfortable about receiving a negative response, surely that is basic requirement for a discussion?
I’m simply making a link between your threads.I would have thought you would be happy to get the attention.
Do try not to make assumptions about how comfortable I am with others views, I’m fine, after all, why would I need to start my own threads when yours garner so much attention...............but then that’s the point isn’t it.....

[Esceptico]

alabbasi said:

In general, Yes. The people who get up and leave their countries seeking for a better life are generally better skilled, harder working and more ambitious than those who sit on their rear moaning about how hard their life is and why it's the fault of someone else.

Perhaps not so good for the countries they are leaving though if the best, brightest and most motivated leave. Hard to stop it though. Seems to be norm for Indians. Ones I have met here in NZ generally have family in the U.K., US, Canada or the Middle East rather than India.

[powerstroke]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This 100% ...The only thing I wonder about
Is shouldn’t we be training and educating our own people instead of taking the Brightest from countries
that could really do with them staying and improving things?

[mrporsche]

I guess it depends on your measurement of beneficial .
Financial
Social
Cultural

I am not sure any of these have been a great success for the UK.

Overall no i dont see that it has been a benefit, there are some aspects that have been a disaster for the country, but there are some aspects that have been very good. As we have not had a plan / process sorting those of value from those that are not hasn't happened .

Historically the UK has never had a meaningful plan on immigration, and the general public ever never been consulted on it, unless you deem Brexit as a vote on it.

The poorest groups in the UK are immigrants / descendants of which would suggest that they aren't all brilliant high earners.

[Pothole]

Esceptico said:

I’m probably being nostalgic but some aspects of U.K. culture seem to have disappeared or been replaced. John Cleese was heavily criticised for saying that London no longer felt like London but I can understand where he is coming from.

What, specifically has disappeared or been replaced?

Cleese lives/lived in Primrose Hill like the rest of the Python lot, doesn't/didn't he? The only culture shift there has been over gentrification and an influx of Hollywood trash, AFAICS.

ETA: No, Chelsea...more Russians, maybe?

Edited by Pothole on Monday 4th January 10:10

[Terminator X]

The UK is hooked on the tax benefit of very quickly increasing its population imho and I can't see that changing ever. I'm not particularly a fan of "come in everybody" and would prefer a more strategic approach such as targeting people for vacant jobs etc.



TX.

[mrporsche]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That is not what has happened in the UK.

We appear to have imported millions of workers that have not worked hard and generated a fortune of benefits, they appear to cost us more than they generate.

In due course they get old and expect the same benefits as our current population, so we do what then ? Import millions more from the third world and start the cycle again ??

[Exige77]

Selective immigration is good.

Imagine a country is like a big company with various job vacancies. They can advertise for people with particular skills to fill those vacancies.

Also imagine random unskilled or wrong skilled people turning up at said company and the company being forced to employ them even if there aren’t any appropriate jobs.

[LimJim]

mrporsche said:

That is not what has happened in the UK.

We appear to have imported millions of workers that have not worked hard and generated a fortune of benefits, they appear to cost us more than they generate.

In due course they get old and expect the same benefits as our current population, so we do what then ? Import millions more from the third world and start the cycle again ??

This is almost the exact mirror opposite of what I understand to be the real numbers?

Care to back this up?

[mrporsche]

Exige77 said:

Also imagine random unskilled or wrong skilled people turning up at said company and the company being forced to employ them even if there aren’t any appropriate jobs.

But this appears to be exactly what we have done !!!