Uber's new terms

[Groat]

Drivers now to be paid at least minimum wage plus paid vacations and pensions!!

I'll be fascinated to follow how this works out. Not to mention its implications for other areas of the taxi business.

Having owned a >300 driver private hire rank I wouldn't have done this in even my most fevered imaginations.

BUT

It will be super interesting to see if Uber can pull it off.

Mind you, it's said they don't make any profit anyway, so it will maybe mean they just make even more colossal losses.

Truly, who knows?

eta: in 10 years I never had even ONE driver who asked if they could be employed rather than self-employed.

Edited by Groat on Tuesday 16th March 23:56

[Not-The-Messiah]

I suspect Uber as just priced themselves out of the market over night.

[Groat]

Not-The-Messiah said:

I suspect Uber have just priced themselves out of the market over night.

Probably everywhere bar London (far and away their biggest market) where everyone gets ripped for everything anyway.

[otherman]

Not-The-Messiah said:

I suspect Uber as just priced themselves out of the market over night.

I doubt it. Even if they come up to trad private hire prices, they still win on convenience. I can call one and it's here in 2 minutes. I can call private hire, they say ten minutes, but in reality it might be half an hour.

[johnboy1975]

Groat said:

Drivers now to be paid at least minimum wage plus paid vacations and pensions!!

Edited by Groat on Tuesday 16th March 23:56

How, though? Log in for a 9am to 5pm shift and get c£9 an hour, or be paid £9 per hour for the 10 minutes you are with a customer (£1.50)

The first is unworkable in small towns and maybe even big cities off peak, the 2nd is effectively what they have already (I think?) Presumably they dont get the fare on top...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56412397

BBC said:

The company, which says it has 70,000 drivers in the UK, said the new rates would come on top of free insurance to cover sickness, injury and maternity and paternity payments which have been in place for all drivers since 2018.

Uber says payment will kick in at:

At least the minimum wage for over 25s, after accepting a trip request and after expenses.
All drivers will be paid holiday time based on 12.07% of their earnings, paid out on a fortnightly basis.
Drivers will automatically be enrolled into a pension plan with contributions from Uber alongside driver contributions, setting drivers up over the long term.
Continued free insurance in case of sickness or injury as well as parental payments, which have been in place for all drivers since 2018.
All drivers will retain the freedom to choose if, when and where they drive.

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

[b0rk]

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

[tescorank]

b0rk said:

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

Well a radical change maybe in a week-interesting times.

[Armchair Expert]

Is it not swings and roundabouts? If you pay enough for someone to work for you as self employed bases then you can pay them to work for you on an employed bases?

[PF62]

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

[ChocolateFrog]

The National Living Wage is £8.72ph.

That should be criminal in itself.

[ChocolateFrog]

PF62 said:

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

It reminds me of Sports Direct employees having to wait to have their bags searched and that wait putting them under the minimum wage threshold.

Surely if they're in their car and ready to accept customers they need to be paid regardless.

[PF62]

ChocolateFrog said:

PF62 said:

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

It reminds me of Sports Direct employees having to wait to have their bags searched and that wait putting them under the minimum wage threshold.

Surely if they're in their car and ready to accept customers they need to be paid regardless.

Exactly. If Uber gets away with this then it is ‘game on’ for every unscrupulous employer to tell staff they are only working when they pick up the phone in the call centre or start scanning things at the till in a shop or take a customer’s order in a restaurant. The rest of the time doesn’t count for minimum wage as they are ‘waiting’.

[voyds9]

PF62 said:

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

Been that way for years in the bus industry. You clock on take your first bus out, you are paid for the time the trip should take (irrespective of delays). When you get back on stand you are on down time until you next route, so you may be sat 40 minutes in canteen awaiting next route.
You can easily be at work 9-10 hours to do a 7:48 shift.

[PF62]

voyds9 said:

PF62 said:

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

Been that way for years in the bus industry. You clock on take your first bus out, you are paid for the time the trip should take (irrespective of delays). When you get back on stand you are on down time until you next route, so you may be sat 40 minutes in canteen awaiting next route.
You can easily be at work 9-10 hours to do a 7:48 shift.

I think you are confusing the calculations for pay with the calculation for minimum wage.

And in addition, the bus driver knows exactly what they will receive before they start. The Uber driver may not receive anything despite being logged on and waiting all day.

[NerveAgent]

PF62 said:

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

Could be an interesting can of worms, a new employment class that doesn’t pay for inactive periods.

[voyds9]

PF62 said:

I think you are confusing the calculations for pay with the calculation for minimum wage.

And in addition, the bus driver knows exactly what they will receive before they start. The Uber driver may not receive anything despite being logged on and waiting all day.

Just pointing out that being paid for driving time only is standard in at least one other comparable industry

And the Uber drivers knew what they were signing up for when they agreed to drive but it has now been retroactively changed by the courts

[johnboy1975]

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

Thanks, I couldn't see how paying drivers to log in was tenable...

So in my example they will be paid £1.50 wages for ten minutes work. Plus presumably part of the fare.

Will this amount be more or less than what they would have received previously?

Or coincidently pretty much about the same?

Guess the holiday pay and sick pay is really only the new bit?

[Electro1980]

PF62 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

PF62 said:

b0rk said:

johnboy1975 said:

I'm still non the wiser, they cant possibly be going to pay 70,000 workers for a 38 hour week?

No the working hours will be calculated from trip acceptance to trip completion. So a driver/worker will get at least at least national living wage for the weekly trip hours worked. Time spent waiting for new trips remains unpaid.

So not only will there probably be another court case with the drivers challenging waiting time being excluded from the minimum wage calculation, I can’t see HMRC accepting it due to the precedent it sets and opening the door to abuse by employers - I seem to recall some fast food franchises ending up on the wrong side of HMRC when they made employees’ clock off’ at quiet times.

However with drivers using multiple taxi apps how on earth is Uber to know whether a driver is only logged in to Uber and should be paid whilst waiting for a job to come in as they are a worker, or although they are logged in they are not accepting jobs as they are driving having taken a job through a different taxi company’s app.

It reminds me of Sports Direct employees having to wait to have their bags searched and that wait putting them under the minimum wage threshold.

Surely if they're in their car and ready to accept customers they need to be paid regardless.

Exactly. If Uber gets away with this then it is ‘game on’ for every unscrupulous employer to tell staff they are only working when they pick up the phone in the call centre or start scanning things at the till in a shop or take a customer’s order in a restaurant. The rest of the time doesn’t count for minimum wage as they are ‘waiting’.

The difference is in requirement and direction.

In the case of McDonald’s and Sports Direct the employees were required to remain on site and available for work at those times.

Uber drivers, however, have the freedom to work where they want and to log on or off when they want. The issue for them seems to have come from the ranking system and the directions given. They were not free to decide how they did their jobs, so we’re not contractors.

It is a very complex area of employment law boiled down to a simple headline.

[PF62]

voyds9 said:

PF62 said:

I think you are confusing the calculations for pay with the calculation for minimum wage.

And in addition, the bus driver knows exactly what they will receive before they start. The Uber driver may not receive anything despite being logged on and waiting all day.

Just pointing out that being paid for driving time only is standard in at least one other comparable industry

The bus driver is being paid a set amount for their shift which is agreed in advance and will take place. The bus company can’t say “sorry, it’s looking a bit wet outside today and we don’t think many people will be catching the bus so we will just cancel those services and we won’t pay you as you won’t be driving “.

The Uber driver might get paid if someone asks Uber for a taxi in that area.

[anonymous-user]

So would people be happy for this this to apply to not just the low paid ? I am sure money could be saved on office workers sitting dicking around online lol