How far is too far?

[JuanCarlosFandango]

A couple of years ago I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of the public would have said that imposing travel restrictions, closing businesses, prohibiting you having guests in your own home and banning peaceful assembly were all things that government should not do. Surely even with some pretext of security or safety most people would have opposed such measures, and anyone who said this was coming would have been called a conspiracy nut. But here we are.

We now know there are plans for vaccine passports, digital ID and presumably that can only be for the purpose of restricting the activities who don't want the vaccine. Given how far things have moved in the last year who knows where that might end up.

So the question is, what is actually too far for you? What would make you say this is wrong?

Vaccine passports to leave the country?
Enter certain businesses?
Fines for being unvaccinated?
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal?
Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

What would be too much?

[Biker 1]

Any form of domestic vaccine passport, &/or having to take a virus test to get into a venue. Thats my line in the sand.
International travel will be an interesting one: every country can make their own rules, so the selection of tourist destinations will be fairly narrow for the great un-vaxxed.
If we end up in a 2-tier society, there will be massive problems & potentially civil unrest.

[sociopath]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

A couple of years ago I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of the public would have said that imposing travel restrictions, closing businesses, prohibiting you having guests in your own home and banning peaceful assembly were all things that government should not do. Surely even with some pretext of security or safety most people would have opposed such measures, and anyone who said this was coming would have been called a conspiracy nut. But here we are.

We now know there are plans for vaccine passports, digital ID and presumably that can only be for the purpose of restricting the activities who don't want the vaccine. Given how far things have moved in the last year who knows where that might end up.

So the question is, what is actually too far for you? What would make you say this is wrong?

Vaccine passports to leave the country?
Enter certain businesses?
Fines for being unvaccinated?
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal?
Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

What would be too much?

Do we?

I'd say stop when they're using them to fill up the gas chambers.

Seriously people give all their private data to Facebook Amazon and Google, but panic about the govt potentially giving you a card with a stamp on it.

They know all they want to know about you via HMRC DVLA NHS etc etc, I don't care if it means I can go to the pub

Edited by sociopath on Monday 26th April 15:01

[CrutyRammers]

sociopath said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

A couple of years ago I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of the public would have said that imposing travel restrictions, closing businesses, prohibiting you having guests in your own home and banning peaceful assembly were all things that government should not do. Surely even with some pretext of security or safety most people would have opposed such measures, and anyone who said this was coming would have been called a conspiracy nut. But here we are.
[b]
We now know there are plans for vaccine passports, digital ID [/b]and presumably that can only be for the purpose of restricting the activities who don't want the vaccine. Given how far things have moved in the last year who knows where that might end up.

So the question is, what is actually too far for you? What would make you say this is wrong?

Vaccine passports to leave the country?
Enter certain businesses?
Fines for being unvaccinated?
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal?
Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

What would be too much?

Do we?

https://order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12...
https://order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12...
https://order-order.com/2021/04/20/exclusive-job-a...

Nothing to see here. What are you looking at? Shut up and sit outside in the cold, and be thankful.

[Sporky]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

The latter seems a little over the top, given that you could just fib to them and tell them that the vaccine is the lethal injection. Imagine their faces when they find out you've been doing a Jeremy Beadle.

[chemistry]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

So the question is, what is actually too far for you? What would make you say this is wrong?

Vaccine passports to leave the country?
Enter certain businesses?
Fines for being unvaccinated?
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal?
Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

What would be too much?

Vaccine passports to leave the country? >> Acceptable (it will be up to other countries to decide anyway)
Enter certain businesses? >> Acceptable (for certain businesses only, such as those that serve vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated)
Fines for being unvaccinated? >> Unacceptable
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal? >> Unacceptable
Actual forced vaccinations? >> Unacceptable
Killing people who won't take it? >> Unacceptable

[Jawls]

It depends on the severity / likelihood of the thing being prevented.

With regards COVID-19, I don’t think the case for vaccine passports (for anything other than foreign travel) has been adequately made. The harshest covid measures (closing schools) were justifiable only because to not do so would lead to NHS being overwhelmed which I think would have led to widespread panic and chaos, and they were billed as short term disaster avoidance measures.

COVID passports for anything other than foreign travel would be a major change in how the state interacts with its citizens and the case hasn’t been made adequately enough for me.

[MiniMan64]

chemistry said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

So the question is, what is actually too far for you? What would make you say this is wrong?

Vaccine passports to leave the country?
Enter certain businesses?
Fines for being unvaccinated?
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal?
Actual forced vaccinations?
Killing people who won't take it?

What would be too much?

Vaccine passports to leave the country? >> Acceptable (it will be up to other countries to decide anyway)
Enter certain businesses? >> Acceptable (for certain businesses only, such as those that serve vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated)
Fines for being unvaccinated? >> Unacceptable
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal? >> Unacceptable
Actual forced vaccinations? >> Unacceptable
Killing people who won't take it? >> Unacceptable

This.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

sociopath said:

Do we?

I'd say stop when they're using them to fill up the gas chambers.

Seriously people give all their private data to Facebook Amazon and Google, but panic about the govt potentially giving you a card with a stamp on it.

They know all they want to know about you via HMRC DVLA NHS etc etc, I don't care if it means I can go to the pub

Edited by sociopath on Monday 26th April 15:01

I don't use Facebook and barely use Amazon or Google. As evidenced by the strange adverts I get for anything I have idly searched for in the last 6 months. They're currently convinced the BMW I sold 2 years ago needs a service after I idly looked up the firing order trying to settle an argument with myself. I guess my life has got a little less interesting of late...

Those companies also have a fairly clear agenda - to sell more stuff. Be it the various wares of Amazon or the targeted advertising of Facebook and Google. I know some would say they have grander ideas, but they are ultimately businesses.

They can't stop me traveling abroad or getting on a train. They can't close my children's school or demand my business closes indefinitely on a whim, or place me under house arrest. They can't put me in prison or declare me unfit to be a father if I decline to have my kids injected.

They might enthusiastically support it and stop me accessing or sharing information about it if it suits them and they might report me to the authorities, but only a state with a monopoly on coercive force can actually do those things. That is why a state mandated digital vaccine passport is orders of magnitude more sinister than Facebook knowing my favourite food or Amazon guessing what I might want to read next.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

chemistry said:

Vaccine passports to leave the country? >> Acceptable (it will be up to other countries to decide anyway)
Enter certain businesses? >> Acceptable (for certain businesses only, such as those that serve vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated)
Fines for being unvaccinated? >> Unacceptable
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal? >> Unacceptable
Actual forced vaccinations? >> Unacceptable
Killing people who won't take it? >> Unacceptable

Agreed that we have no control over what foreign governments do, though having a state backed vaccine passport will facilitate that. I understand you can already get a vaccine record to travel to the small number of countries who require certain vaccines to enter. Currently it is illegal to travel outside the UK without an approved reason and telling the government where you have been when you return. Something that feels strange to type for someone with my idea of what this country was until last year.

What businesses don't serve vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated? That sounds sensible enough in a way, for say care home workers or nurses but how do you prevent mission creep? I would rather rule in the few people who really need it than leave it so open ended.

[RizzoTheRat]

chemistry said:

Vaccine passports to leave the country? >> Acceptable (it will be up to other countries to decide anyway)
Enter certain businesses? >> Acceptable (for certain businesses only, such as those that serve vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated)
Fines for being unvaccinated? >> Unacceptable
Imprisonment for vaccine refusal? >> Unacceptable
Actual forced vaccinations? >> Unacceptable
Killing people who won't take it? >> Unacceptable

This ^, but I would caveat the fines/imprisonment ones that they should be allowed in circumstances where someone's lied or falsified evidence to be somewhere where they should be vaccinated, ie if a particular job requires staff to be vaccinated. I'd see that the same as someone falsifying medical or pilot qualifications, both of which have happened in recent years.


I don't get why some people are so upset about the idea of vaccine passports, you already need to have certain vaccinations (eg yellow fever and meningitis) for some countries, and I know several people who have vaccination log books to show what they've had.

[BoRED S2upid]

Forcing anyone to have a vaccine is the limit I’d say. Vaccine passport fine you don’t have to get one you don’t have to leave the U.K.

Personally think people moaning about being imprisoned need to have a word with themselves as it’s not happened in the U.K. nobody forced us to stay indoors there were always exceptions. Now China they do it proper there were stories of doors being nailed shut to keep the diseased indoors!

[Wolfmanjack]

BoRED S2upid said:

Forcing anyone to have a vaccine is the limit I’d say. Vaccine passport fine you don’t have to get one you don’t have to leave the U.K.

Personally think people moaning about being imprisoned need to have a word with themselves as it’s not happened in the U.K. nobody forced us to stay indoors there were always exceptions. Now China they do it proper there were stories of doors being nailed shut to keep the diseased indoors!

And Stalin purged his people...

You can’t use a more extreme example to justify slightly less extreme measures ...

Any kind of 2 tier society is unacceptable. It’s a mild virus not Ebola

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Well fed, well dressed, middle class woman in pearls wearing a yellow star because "I'm being treated like the Jews were treated by the Nazis" is definitely too far. These people should be jailed for a new offence of being too stupid to be allowed out.

[Pothole]

How many Covid threads is too many?

[Misanthrope]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

We now know there are plans for vaccine passports, digital ID and presumably that can only be for the purpose of restricting the activities who don't want the vaccine. Given how far things have moved in the last year who knows where that might end up.

No, that doesn't follow at all. Once the principle is established that you have to show a phone app to enter a shop, pub, restaurant or anywhere else, there are almost no limits on how that could be used. Even to the extent of "you expressed undesirable opinions on social media - no fun for you."

[Wolfmanjack]

Misanthrope said:

No, that doesn't follow at all. Once the principle is established that you have to show a phone app to enter a shop, pub, restaurant or anywhere else, there are almost no limits on how that could be used. Even to the extent of "you expressed undesirable opinions on social media - no fun for you."

This..^

It’s main attribute is social credit implementation.

Covid is of no real consequence in reality

Lots of people lusting after it in here because at the moment their opinions dovetail with the governments but rest assured they won’t always and then they will be bleating about injustice

Tyranny always eats it’s own children eventually

[BoRED S2upid]

I had to “check in” register my details at a chip van the other day. I didn’t but seriously why does anyone need to know I went to the chip van?

[JuanCarlosFandango]

RizzoTheRat said:

This ^, but I would caveat the fines/imprisonment ones that they should be allowed in circumstances where someone's lied or falsified evidence to be somewhere where they should be vaccinated, ie if a particular job requires staff to be vaccinated. I'd see that the same as someone falsifying medical or pilot qualifications, both of which have happened in recent years.


I don't get why some people are so upset about the idea of vaccine passports, you already need to have certain vaccinations (eg yellow fever and meningitis) for some countries, and I know several people who have vaccination log books to show what they've had.

And what about if someone has falsified their vaccine credentials to go to work, travel abroad or go to a pub?

I suppose most of us don't regularly travel from South America to Africa so it doesn't come up.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Misanthrope said:

No, that doesn't follow at all. Once the principle is established that you have to show a phone app to enter a shop, pub, restaurant or anywhere else, there are almost no limits on how that could be used. Even to the extent of "you expressed undesirable opinions on social media - no fun for you."

True, I should have said will be sold as only for that purpose.