White working class and discrimination
Discussion
I was brought up white working class. Not in poverty but poor compared to many at my school. Lived on a council estate. Friends were the same. We had middle class people at my school but I didn’t mix with them. Sixth form was a bit lonely as all my friends left at 16.
By quirk of genetic fate I was academically bright so ended up going to University (back in the day when far fewer people went), got into a profession and somehow migrated into the middle class.
Looking at exam results it seems that the white working class - particularly boys - perform the worst of all the ethnic groups in the UK.
There aren’t any laws discriminating against white working class boys. Education is free in the U.K. Anyone that wants to learn, can learn. University is not free but loans are available and you only have to pay them back if you earn above average in the future.
Overt discrimination doesn’t exist in the workplace either. Yet in my professional career I came across relatively few working class lads like myself. Given that white working class are the largest group in the UK that was odd.
Why is that the case? Are the white working class just inferior? If not, then there must be some sociological reason why white boys perform so badly, presumably linked to white working class culture. But is it the fault of white working class people, holding themselves down, or the rest of society discriminating against them? Or a mix of the two?
People talk about greater social mobility in the U.K. but I’m not sure whether it has got better over my life. It seems to me that those at the bottom of the pile when I was growing up in the 70s/80s are still there today.
By quirk of genetic fate I was academically bright so ended up going to University (back in the day when far fewer people went), got into a profession and somehow migrated into the middle class.
Looking at exam results it seems that the white working class - particularly boys - perform the worst of all the ethnic groups in the UK.
There aren’t any laws discriminating against white working class boys. Education is free in the U.K. Anyone that wants to learn, can learn. University is not free but loans are available and you only have to pay them back if you earn above average in the future.
Overt discrimination doesn’t exist in the workplace either. Yet in my professional career I came across relatively few working class lads like myself. Given that white working class are the largest group in the UK that was odd.
Why is that the case? Are the white working class just inferior? If not, then there must be some sociological reason why white boys perform so badly, presumably linked to white working class culture. But is it the fault of white working class people, holding themselves down, or the rest of society discriminating against them? Or a mix of the two?
People talk about greater social mobility in the U.K. but I’m not sure whether it has got better over my life. It seems to me that those at the bottom of the pile when I was growing up in the 70s/80s are still there today.
Your story perfectly mirrors my own.
The fact we were able to go to university and move into professional careers shows that things aren’t that bad.
None of my school friends made the same move, but it wasn’t as if they were trying and getting knocked back. They just decided to not work hard at school, get jobs at 16 or 18, hang around in the wrong circles etc. Though they could not all have been Drs and lawyers, most of them could have pushed into a professional job.
I still don’t really fit in with middle class people. I still sound a bit working class and eat with my knife and fork in the wrong hand :-). However, it never held me back in the workplace. I held senior roles in the city and then board level management consulting and nobody seemed to care where I came from.
So for me it’s all about aspiration and education and not discrimination.
The fact we were able to go to university and move into professional careers shows that things aren’t that bad.
None of my school friends made the same move, but it wasn’t as if they were trying and getting knocked back. They just decided to not work hard at school, get jobs at 16 or 18, hang around in the wrong circles etc. Though they could not all have been Drs and lawyers, most of them could have pushed into a professional job.
I still don’t really fit in with middle class people. I still sound a bit working class and eat with my knife and fork in the wrong hand :-). However, it never held me back in the workplace. I held senior roles in the city and then board level management consulting and nobody seemed to care where I came from.
So for me it’s all about aspiration and education and not discrimination.
I was discussing this with my wife. I'm from a working class background from a s
t hole city.
Wife is upper-middle... Born in a small market town.
My thoughts...
Her family owned books about a wide range of stuff. They had encyclopedias. Her parents had been to uni so it was an expectation. I was the first in my family and we had a few books on only 2 or 3 topics.. . None helpful for school.
Her father was a director in a multi-national engineering company. Mine was a tool maker on the floor. My father was thus practical... Her father had a much broader set of skills which are of more use in doing well academically.
Her parents helped with homework. Neither of mine did.
Her schools... High performing, high number heading to uni. My schools...glue bags and hypos in the playground. Just a handful went to uni and font recall anyone heading to a Russel group.
My social group had no ambitions beyond booze, drugs, and a job with good overtime. Her social group were a mix of privately educated and bright young things driving towards a career.
Her parents knew that there was such a thing as exam technique. Mine thought you just had to try harder. Hers knew you could get a temporary private tutor to help pass exams. Mine thought you had to try harder. Hers understood that there are different learning style... Mine... Try harder.
She went on hiday abroad. Us... Never. She was offered experiences that open horizons. Mine... Walking holidays in the dales or moors.... Every fking year.
None of that explains the delta between white and non-whites of course. But the advantages are many and subtle between middle and working... Never mind poor and those with an OK income.
t hole city.Wife is upper-middle... Born in a small market town.
My thoughts...
Her family owned books about a wide range of stuff. They had encyclopedias. Her parents had been to uni so it was an expectation. I was the first in my family and we had a few books on only 2 or 3 topics.. . None helpful for school.
Her father was a director in a multi-national engineering company. Mine was a tool maker on the floor. My father was thus practical... Her father had a much broader set of skills which are of more use in doing well academically.
Her parents helped with homework. Neither of mine did.
Her schools... High performing, high number heading to uni. My schools...glue bags and hypos in the playground. Just a handful went to uni and font recall anyone heading to a Russel group.
My social group had no ambitions beyond booze, drugs, and a job with good overtime. Her social group were a mix of privately educated and bright young things driving towards a career.
Her parents knew that there was such a thing as exam technique. Mine thought you just had to try harder. Hers knew you could get a temporary private tutor to help pass exams. Mine thought you had to try harder. Hers understood that there are different learning style... Mine... Try harder.
She went on hiday abroad. Us... Never. She was offered experiences that open horizons. Mine... Walking holidays in the dales or moors.... Every f
king year. None of that explains the delta between white and non-whites of course. But the advantages are many and subtle between middle and working... Never mind poor and those with an OK income.
dmahon said:
Your story perfectly mirrors my own.
The fact we were able to go to university and move into professional careers shows that things aren’t that bad.
None of my school friends made the same move, but it wasn’t as if they were trying and getting knocked back. They just decided to not work hard at school, get jobs at 16 or 18, hang around in the wrong circles etc. Though they could not all have been Drs and lawyers, most of them could have pushed into a professional job.
I still don’t really fit in with middle class people. I still sound a bit working class and eat with my knife and fork in the wrong hand :-). However, it never held me back in the workplace. I held senior roles in the city and then board level management consulting and nobody seemed to care where I came from.
So for me it’s all about aspiration and education and not discrimination.
I don’t think being working class got in the way in my career. Being an introvert was a much bigger obstacle but even got around that one mainly. Yet so few from the white working class do escape. The fact we were able to go to university and move into professional careers shows that things aren’t that bad.
None of my school friends made the same move, but it wasn’t as if they were trying and getting knocked back. They just decided to not work hard at school, get jobs at 16 or 18, hang around in the wrong circles etc. Though they could not all have been Drs and lawyers, most of them could have pushed into a professional job.
I still don’t really fit in with middle class people. I still sound a bit working class and eat with my knife and fork in the wrong hand :-). However, it never held me back in the workplace. I held senior roles in the city and then board level management consulting and nobody seemed to care where I came from.
So for me it’s all about aspiration and education and not discrimination.
Plenty of immigrants have managed to do well in the UK. To me it seems being working class is more of a hinderance though. I’ve lots of Indian friends and family and most are doing really well but all come from middle class backgrounds.
Same as you my experience when I went to university was that my friends were not rejected rather they chose not to even try. They were just focused on leaving school ASAP and getting a job.
I think expectations and role models are very important. None of my friends had family members that had been to university and had successful, professional careers eg doctors, lawyers, bankers etc. It wasn’t in their or their family’s experience and it didn’t really occur to them to aim for that.
Is it also that kids from those backgrounds just don’t want to do your career or didn’t know it was an option for them?
It’s maybe also about the school or their parents channeling or limiting their careers and expectations by not making these other careers and education seem possible for the kids they should be inspiring.
How many people go into careers just because it’s what they know or what their parents did or friends parents did.
Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
It’s maybe also about the school or their parents channeling or limiting their careers and expectations by not making these other careers and education seem possible for the kids they should be inspiring.
How many people go into careers just because it’s what they know or what their parents did or friends parents did.
Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
El stovey said:
Is it also that kids from those backgrounds just don’t want to do your career or didn’t know it was an option for them?
It’s maybe also about the school or their parents channeling or limiting their careers and expectations by not making these other careers and education seem possible for the kids they should be inspiring.
How many people go into careers just because it’s what they know or what their parents did or friends parents did.
Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
Yet despite "diversity quotas" white working class people do better in the working world than non-white.It’s maybe also about the school or their parents channeling or limiting their careers and expectations by not making these other careers and education seem possible for the kids they should be inspiring.
How many people go into careers just because it’s what they know or what their parents did or friends parents did.
Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
So whilst they perform relatively poorly in education they do better in work.
It's not even being smart always. Grit and determination and general attitude are a big factor. My school grades were all C. I got U grade at Maths O level first time round.
It is an ambition to do something interesting/different with your life. Each individual has their own levels of desire and ambition. I was not encouraged by parents, given anything to help me on my way, parents divorced at 14 and I was paid no attention (not a complaint, just how it was). I worked, paper rounds/bars/clubs. I went to polytechnic after technical college, mostly because I wanted more in life than the local people I was at college with (in Sc-unthorpe). I think only 3 of us went on to uni after college.
It is an ambition to do something interesting/different with your life. Each individual has their own levels of desire and ambition. I was not encouraged by parents, given anything to help me on my way, parents divorced at 14 and I was paid no attention (not a complaint, just how it was). I worked, paper rounds/bars/clubs. I went to polytechnic after technical college, mostly because I wanted more in life than the local people I was at college with (in Sc-unthorpe). I think only 3 of us went on to uni after college.
El stovey said:
Is it also that kids from those backgrounds just don’t want to do your career or didn’t know it was an option for them?
Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
In almost 30 years in business I’ve not come across any quota schemes for minorities. I’ve come across women’s networks and the like but that wasn’t about holding positions open for just women. Do you have any statistics to show this positive discrimination takes place on a meaningful level?Then if you’re in the majority group (white working class boys), there’s less likely to be moves to attract you into different careers and education due to diversity quotas (or whatever) etc.
So I’d say it’s mainly the parent’s fault for limiting the kids due the parents own narrow world view and limitations and then being white boys they’re not going to get a leg up or helped with support like other minority workplace groups do.
Esceptico said:
In almost 30 years in business I’ve not come across any quota schemes for minorities. I’ve come across women’s networks and the like but that wasn’t about holding positions open for just women. Do you have any statistics to show this positive discrimination takes place on a meaningful level?
Sure, we’d advertise more in certain magazines trying to attract more female applicants, female applicants would go to the top of the interview pile, our pr material will disproportionately show females and minority employees. It happens a lot in my industry and I’m involved in recruitment so know it’s done this way. My wife also is used in many of the campaigns in her workplace and has often been told that there’s a lack of women in her level of the company and they’re keen to address this and ensure more women reach these more senior positions, she’s great at her job but admits her rapid promotions are to do with a lack of females of her age in the company.
This happens in many ways and is quite common, the group being targeted for recruitment will never be white working class kids though as they’re not viewed as being disadvantaged.
Esceptico said:
In almost 30 years in business I’ve not come across any quota schemes for minorities. I’ve come across women’s networks and the like but that wasn’t about holding positions open for just women. Do you have any statistics to show this positive discrimination takes place on a meaningful level?
Big companies have such targets as a fact (for women)sevensfun said:
Esceptico said:
In almost 30 years in business I’ve not come across any quota schemes for minorities. I’ve come across women’s networks and the like but that wasn’t about holding positions open for just women. Do you have any statistics to show this positive discrimination takes place on a meaningful level?
Big companies have such targets as a fact (for women)We’ve even had legal tribunals where my employer has made far more effort to help and retrain struggling and underperforming female employees than they gave to males in the same position.
This isn’t to say that those employees aren’t great or as good and I’m glad we’re looking to attract people from different backgrounds but we’re 100% prioritising groups of people to recruit and white blokes aren’t ever in those groups.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th May 07:20
Murph7355 said:
It's likely that many of societies ills are less about race and more about other fundamental aspects of life. Typically parents. At least now (and for a while in this country).
Those fundamentals are far harder to address, however.
I agree, it’s poor parenting mainly causing the problems. Those fundamentals are far harder to address, however.
It's an interesting topic that falls somewhere between politics and economics. My dad's dad was a genetically flukey smart working class chap who helped my dad escape into a profession, and thus secure our family's middle class status (no itv for me growing up!)
The word discrimination tor means being treated worse by someone.
On the one hand: if white working class don't want to go to uni/professions/chase a middle class life, are they being treated any "worse"?
But on the other: are they being denied opportunity to progress by some controlling mind in our society?
Whilst not expressed overtly, I suspect the OP is taking umbridge at the focus on bame discrimination as if it's the only factor that can hold people back.
And I would agree with that to some extent, although all discrimination is wrong, so maybe at face value the thread is about how to address those being left behind or being held back, regardless of badge.
The problem is: how do "make" parents lift their aspirations for their kids? My wife's a teacher, and there are some working class parents who push their kids academically, some would but can't (eg can't read); others just don't care.
They all need different approaches.
The biggest single improvement is reading at an early age. Every kid in a UK school will be given a book every evening to read, and have access to a school library as well as public libraries (covid excepted)
But a lot of books stay untouched in the school bag.
Poor readers will get additional time for reading, but there's only so many hours in a teaching day, and 29 other kids who require teaching as well.
Our infant school got elderly volunteers to come and read with kids, and i did it a few times on days off, but covid has stopped all of that.
The word discrimination tor means being treated worse by someone.
On the one hand: if white working class don't want to go to uni/professions/chase a middle class life, are they being treated any "worse"?
But on the other: are they being denied opportunity to progress by some controlling mind in our society?
Whilst not expressed overtly, I suspect the OP is taking umbridge at the focus on bame discrimination as if it's the only factor that can hold people back.
And I would agree with that to some extent, although all discrimination is wrong, so maybe at face value the thread is about how to address those being left behind or being held back, regardless of badge.
The problem is: how do "make" parents lift their aspirations for their kids? My wife's a teacher, and there are some working class parents who push their kids academically, some would but can't (eg can't read); others just don't care.
They all need different approaches.
The biggest single improvement is reading at an early age. Every kid in a UK school will be given a book every evening to read, and have access to a school library as well as public libraries (covid excepted)
But a lot of books stay untouched in the school bag.
Poor readers will get additional time for reading, but there's only so many hours in a teaching day, and 29 other kids who require teaching as well.
Our infant school got elderly volunteers to come and read with kids, and i did it a few times on days off, but covid has stopped all of that.
g3org3y said:
El stovey said:
This happens in many ways and is quite common, the group being targeted for recruitment will never be white working class kids though as they’re not viewed as being disadvantaged.
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