Croydon Tram Crash - an accident

[SydneyBridge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57721...

Have to agree with the family, what a farce.

Driver 3 times over the speed limit for the bit of track, may have had a micro nap and been confused where he was

Driver did not give evidence.

RIP those who died

[rover 623gsi]

It can now be reported that south London senior coroner Sarah Ormond-Walshe refused to call a number of people who the victims' families wanted to give evidence about alleged safety failings.
Those potential witnesses include senior managers of operator Tram Operations Ltd (TOL) - a subsidiary of FirstGroup - and Transport for London (TfL), plus other experts.

WTF?

[cirian75]

rover 623gsi said:

It can now be reported that south London senior coroner Sarah Ormond-Walshe refused to call a number of people who the victims' families wanted to give evidence about alleged safety failings.
Those potential witnesses include senior managers of operator Tram Operations Ltd (TOL) - a subsidiary of FirstGroup - and Transport for London (TfL), plus other experts.

WTF?

Looks like a stitch up.

[Mr Whippy]

Didn’t a chap drive off a railway bridge near Great Heck because he was a bit tired/sleepy/micro nap, became disorientated, and caused a massive train crash?

It seems a bit odd that an actual train driver can do the same, fall asleep at wheel, crash, and walk away.

[anonymous-user]

An inquest isn't about apportioning blame, it's about establishing the facts of what happened. I don't think this was ever going to give the families what they wanted, it's the wrong forum for it.

It's for the criminal or civil courts to determine blame, or a public enquiry.

https://secure.manchester.gov.uk/info/626/coroners...

[nullogik]

If it was a lorry driver that had a micro-nap at the wheel, was speeding and drove into a crowd of people or caused a collision that killed seven and injured over 50 I don't think the outcome of all this would be the same as what has happened here with the tram crash.

I'm almost certain the lorry driver would also be in jail.

Edited by nullogik on Thursday 22 July 14:12

[Ronstein]

The inquest has identified it was an accident. The driver didn't deliberately fall asleep. The role of the coroner is just to establish the cause of death. If there are criminal or Health & Safety issues, those are for Police and HSE to investigate and prosecute independently.

[Unknown_User]

Extremely surprised by this verdict. The families must be furious.

[55palfers]

Hasn't this got something to do with drivers being pressurised into operating stupidly long shift patterns with insufficient statutory rest between shifts?

I would sincerely hope this isn't finished. HSE need to take an interest (maybe they have)

"An accident" is still an odd verdict though.

[Biker 1]

55palfers said:

"An accident" is still an odd verdict though.

I doubt the driver did it on purpose.

[coppernorks]

Biker 1 said:

I doubt the driver did it on purpose.

Shocking decision.

The two signallers at Quintinshill didn't mean to kill 200 people due to their ineptitude but they rightly went to jail.

An accident is the tram hitting faulty trackwork, a landslide or a felled tree, I'm thinking a tram
driver not being awake is the very acme of culpability.

[neilr]

coppernorks said:

Shocking decision.

The two signallers at Quintinshill didn't mean to kill 200 people due to their ineptitude but they rightly went to jail.

An accident is the tram hitting faulty trackwork, a landslide or a felled tree, I'm thinking a tram
driver not being awake is the very acme of culpability.

My great gandfather narrowly avoided being in the Quintinhill disaster by agreeing to travel on a later train with a senior officer. (He was a chaplain.) He was, as the troops involved in the disaster were, en route to Gallipoli.

Anyway, this 'accident' decision is very odd isnt it.

[Vasco]

55palfers said:

Hasn't this got something to do with drivers being pressurised into operating stupidly long shift patterns with insufficient statutory rest between shifts?

I would sincerely hope this isn't finished. HSE need to take an interest (maybe they have)

"An accident" is still an odd verdict though.

Not sure that's the case here. Where have you seen reference to 'pressurised' and 'stupidly long shifts'?

[EW109]

This has already been the subject of a very detailed RAIB investigation and report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

Having recently been a juror in an inquest the jury have very little options available to them. In this case accident or gross negligence. The family’s lawyers would have pushed for TFL to be put in the dock but if there is insufficient evidence that in this case the driver or tram operator did something wrong then you have little chance of them being asked to appear in court. So you’d have to assume that in this case it was an accident by the driver who may have slept but no evidence has been found out previous to the accident that he had worked long hours or was suffering from stress, sleepless nights.

So on that basis and the fact the coroner will remind you that the job of the jury is to determine the facts then don’t have a lot of choice but to return an accident verdict.

Maybe better lawyers could have uncovered more stuff but i suspect that tfl are good at covering their tracks. No pun intended

[Dogwatch]

I suppose that if you put a right-angle bend in a railway line (ok a tram on a line turning sharply off the old railway formation up to street level) then one day someone is going to overcook it.

I think this is another case of lining up the holes in a Swiss cheese.

[grumbledoak]

These things are always a whitewash. Public sector = no accountability at all. A lorry driver would be in gaol.

[markcoznottz]

Ronstein said:

The inquest has identified it was an accident. The driver didn't deliberately fall asleep. The role of the coroner is just to establish the cause of death. If there are criminal or Health & Safety issues, those are for Police and HSE to investigate and prosecute independently.

How can someone deliberately fall asleep vs not?

[SydneyBridge]

'A report from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) in 2017 found: "It is probable that the driver temporarily lost awareness on a section of route on which his workload was low. The investigation has found that a possible explanation for this loss of awareness was that the driver had a microsleep and that this was linked to fatigue."

Section of route when workload was low, what.... surely driving a tram full of passengers gives a very full workload all the time

[irc]

nullogik said:

If it was a lorry driver that had a micro-nap at the wheel, was speeding and drove into a crowd of people or caused a collision that killed seven and injured over 50 I don't think the outcome of all this would be the same as what has happened here with the tram crash.

I'm almost certain the lorry driver would also be in jail.

Edited by nullogik on Thursday 22 July 14:12

Think so?

"The driver of a bin lorry which crashed and killed six people in Glasgow five years ago says he is sorry for the part he played. "

"prosecutors previously ruled Mr Clarke would not face criminal charges due to insufficient evidence. They said because he had been unconscious at the wheel of the bin lorry, he did not have the required "criminal intention"."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-wes...