The Greater Manchester CAZ charge
Discussion
Cameras have recently been going up all around Manchester to enforce the upcoming "Clean air zone" charge.
I predict there is going to be a programme of mass civil disobedience in the coming weeks and months, this zone encompasses a massive area as much as ten miles from the City centre.
A self employed painter and decorator or plumber with a small van will be charged £10 a day when they enter the zone, buses and HGV's £60 a day.
The government have been forced to climb down before with the poll tax, it could well happen here, facebook groups are being set up and posters will be going up everywhere.
I could maybe understand if it was the immediate square mile of the city centre, but some parts of the zone are out in the sticks.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/greatermanchesterc...
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/
I predict there is going to be a programme of mass civil disobedience in the coming weeks and months, this zone encompasses a massive area as much as ten miles from the City centre.
A self employed painter and decorator or plumber with a small van will be charged £10 a day when they enter the zone, buses and HGV's £60 a day.
The government have been forced to climb down before with the poll tax, it could well happen here, facebook groups are being set up and posters will be going up everywhere.
I could maybe understand if it was the immediate square mile of the city centre, but some parts of the zone are out in the sticks.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/greatermanchesterc...
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/
Wacky Racer said:
Cameras have recently been going up all around Manchester to enforce the upcoming "Clean air zone" charge.
I predict there is going to be a programme of mass civil disobedience in the coming weeks and months, this zone encompasses a massive area as much as ten miles from the City centre.
A self employed painter and decorator or plumber with a small van will be charged £10 a day when they enter the zone, buses and HGV's £60 a day.
The government have been forced to climb down before with the poll tax, it could well happen here, facebook groups are being set up and posters will be going up everywhere.
I could maybe understand if it was the immediate square mile of the city centre, but some parts of the zone are out in the sticks.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/greatermanchesterc...
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/
Nothing will happen except a lot of moaning.I predict there is going to be a programme of mass civil disobedience in the coming weeks and months, this zone encompasses a massive area as much as ten miles from the City centre.
A self employed painter and decorator or plumber with a small van will be charged £10 a day when they enter the zone, buses and HGV's £60 a day.
The government have been forced to climb down before with the poll tax, it could well happen here, facebook groups are being set up and posters will be going up everywhere.
I could maybe understand if it was the immediate square mile of the city centre, but some parts of the zone are out in the sticks.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/greatermanchesterc...
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/
London has introduced a congestion charge (central London), a low emissions zone specifically for commercial vehicles (up to the M25 border near enough) and just recently an ultra low emissions zone (North/South circular borders).
All was introduced peacefully with barely a whimper except for some complaining on social media and traders affected simply added it to their customers bills and taxi and private hire charges were raised to accommodate the new extra charges.
There will be no mass disobedience bar a very few who’ll refuse to pay out of some sort of principle and will simply end up paying far more in fines and charges in the long run.
All the arguments have been aired and you can search for the ULEZ thread on here where they were all made. Several times…
I was part of the focus group about 2 years ago representing small operators (hgvs). They really have no clue just how badly this is going to hit small business. The authority assume every business makes tens of thousands of pounds a year out of each truck when the reality is lots don't.
I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
valiant said:
Stuff
You may well be right, but we will have to see, I think if it was £2 a day people might accept it more readily.Obviously everyone would prefer to breathe in clean air, but in cannot be right that someone driving a Ford Escort van has to pay but someone driving a Ford Escort car (For example) doesn't. They emit the same fumes.
Also, where is all this money going to?
I queried what these cameras are a while back… I thought they may be capable of speed related measurements (was asking for a friend) but no they’re just there to save the polar bears… and to siphon off some extra gravy.
andy43 said:
I've answered my own question now ANPR has been mentioned - yes it is an emissions zone anpr camera, one of 850+ cameras to be fitted within Greater Manchester. I can't find anything that suggests they can be used for speed enforcement. Oh joy. They're presumably green, carbon neutral, solar powered and completely recyclable too 
Found details on this website (warning - dashcam content)
https://www.cocotbodol.com/author/dashcamdays/
And here's the map of my area showing how many they're fitting
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1VRHFTdMa...
Also found this gem of a quote elsewhere : "In my roles as the Chair of Net Zero North West and CEO of Siemens, it fills me with immense pride to be able to deliver Net Zero North West’s Economic Investment Prospectus, which outlines £207bn green investment, £285bn GVA and over 660,000 jobs."
Go on, have a guess which german electronics company makes the cameras
Found details on this website (warning - dashcam content)
https://www.cocotbodol.com/author/dashcamdays/
And here's the map of my area showing how many they're fitting
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1VRHFTdMa...
Also found this gem of a quote elsewhere : "In my roles as the Chair of Net Zero North West and CEO of Siemens, it fills me with immense pride to be able to deliver Net Zero North West’s Economic Investment Prospectus, which outlines £207bn green investment, £285bn GVA and over 660,000 jobs."
Go on, have a guess which german electronics company makes the cameras
gotoPzero said:
I was part of the focus group about 2 years ago representing small operators (hgvs). They really have no clue just how badly this is going to hit small business. The authority assume every business makes tens of thousands of pounds a year out of each truck when the reality is lots don't.
I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
MCC are absolutely clueless and most of the councillors are as thick as pigsI have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
t That’s from personal experience of having to work with the feckin idiots and attend way too many council meetings
gotoPzero said:
I was part of the focus group about 2 years ago representing small operators (hgvs). They really have no clue just how badly this is going to hit small business. The authority assume every business makes tens of thousands of pounds a year out of each truck when the reality is lots don't.
I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
£420 a week for a truck I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
How many runs would it make? 14? 21? Can't you increase your prices by £20-30 a drop?
Who gets the money? Burnham or Johnson?
loafer123 said:
What they probably want to do is have consolidation centres, as are being brought into the City of London, so all deliveries go to a warehouse, and then a few fully loaded trucks then deliver into the city.
GMC isn’t a city .. it’s a loose collection of towns and town lands separated by in some cases very rural areas and indeed pennine moorland Want to drive a van from Diggle to Saddleworth .. kerching
Big difference from
Islington to Camden
johnboy1975 said:
gotoPzero said:
I was part of the focus group about 2 years ago representing small operators (hgvs). They really have no clue just how badly this is going to hit small business. The authority assume every business makes tens of thousands of pounds a year out of each truck when the reality is lots don't.
I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
£420 a week for a truck I have no idea if they took any of my comments on board but the only good thing to come out of it was the £100 a day charge was reduced to £60.
In more recent weeks after looking at this again and just how its going to impact us I decided to go to the authority directly and try and raise the issues again as frankly this is not going to end well for us.
I did get a response and they agreed that this is going to be devastating for small business but their stance remains that the CAZ is a legal requirement placed upon them by government and they have no choice as a court order is in place.
I think this is going to have a much bigger impact than people think on certain niche industries. Especially given we are still in the middle of a pandemic. The government are basically pulling the plug on small transport businesses overnight.
How many runs would it make? 14? 21? Can't you increase your prices by £20-30 a drop?
Who gets the money? Burnham or Johnson?
I don't think customers will pay. People are savvy enough as it is at the moment and will google the best price plus most browsers will tell them its cheaper elsewhere! The big PLCs all lease their trucks and they are all euro 6..
We are between a rock and a hard place with this.
I had a long sit down with my accountant and he was frank with me that its not likely we will retain all our customers and with the extra costs being spread over fewer customers the ones that do stay will have to pay more because we are multi drop so the truck will be going out with less drops and so the snowball will start.
Because we only make about £10 an order at the moment and due to the ban on red diesel and increase in wage costs he thinks we need to put prices up by as much as 35%. In one go.
The other option is to lease new trucks (if we can some how find a lender that will underwrite it) and then we wont have to pay the charge however the lease costs are around £2500 a month. I am currently looking at how we could reduce the size of the fleet and maybe run 7 days a week but honestly I dont think I physically have it in me to do that and I doubt the employees would be on board as they all like the fact we are an 8am till 4pm operation mon-fri as they all have kids etc.
Either way its not going to work financially which is the main issue.
gotoPzero said:
Yes we will put prices up - but its a guessing game if customers will stay. It will work back to about £15 an order in simple terms over the course of a year.
I don't think customers will pay. People are savvy enough as it is at the moment and will google the best price plus most browsers will tell them its cheaper elsewhere! The big PLCs all lease their trucks and they are all euro 6..
We are between a rock and a hard place with this.
I had a long sit down with my accountant and he was frank with me that its not likely we will retain all our customers and with the extra costs being spread over fewer customers the ones that do stay will have to pay more because we are multi drop so the truck will be going out with less drops and so the snowball will start.
Because we only make about £10 an order at the moment and due to the ban on red diesel and increase in wage costs he thinks we need to put prices up by as much as 35%. In one go.
The other option is to lease new trucks (if we can some how find a lender that will underwrite it) and then we wont have to pay the charge however the lease costs are around £2500 a month. I am currently looking at how we could reduce the size of the fleet and maybe run 7 days a week but honestly I dont think I physically have it in me to do that and I doubt the employees would be on board as they all like the fact we are an 8am till 4pm operation mon-fri as they all have kids etc.
Either way its not going to work financially which is the main issue.
It’s an absolute mockery that the busiest and possibly most polluting roads in the county with huge amounts of heavy traffic are exempt I don't think customers will pay. People are savvy enough as it is at the moment and will google the best price plus most browsers will tell them its cheaper elsewhere! The big PLCs all lease their trucks and they are all euro 6..
We are between a rock and a hard place with this.
I had a long sit down with my accountant and he was frank with me that its not likely we will retain all our customers and with the extra costs being spread over fewer customers the ones that do stay will have to pay more because we are multi drop so the truck will be going out with less drops and so the snowball will start.
Because we only make about £10 an order at the moment and due to the ban on red diesel and increase in wage costs he thinks we need to put prices up by as much as 35%. In one go.
The other option is to lease new trucks (if we can some how find a lender that will underwrite it) and then we wont have to pay the charge however the lease costs are around £2500 a month. I am currently looking at how we could reduce the size of the fleet and maybe run 7 days a week but honestly I dont think I physically have it in me to do that and I doubt the employees would be on board as they all like the fact we are an 8am till 4pm operation mon-fri as they all have kids etc.
Either way its not going to work financially which is the main issue.
That include the entire strategic road network managed by Highways England such as the M6, M56, M60,M62.M66,M67, M602; hundreds of miles of the busiest motorways in the country
Yet drive down a quiet country lane on saddleworth moor and get battered .. be one of the tens of thousands of trucks crossing the moor on the M62 and pay nothing
Shameful
Edited by Earthdweller on Sunday 9th January 20:23
anyone got a map.of the boundaries? I've .struggled to find one.
I'm already dreading what i feel is probable - a huge increase in traffic in Wilmslow from vans / trucks / taxis wanting to get to the m60 via the 56, instead of paying on the a34.
I'm also interested to see if this then impacts all the l200 "commercial vehicle" drivers that wanted the big company car without the BIK bill. Do they now get hit by ulez instead?
I'm already dreading what i feel is probable - a huge increase in traffic in Wilmslow from vans / trucks / taxis wanting to get to the m60 via the 56, instead of paying on the a34.
I'm also interested to see if this then impacts all the l200 "commercial vehicle" drivers that wanted the big company car without the BIK bill. Do they now get hit by ulez instead?
Here you go
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone-map/
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone-map/
Edited by Earthdweller on Sunday 9th January 20:30
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