Man strangled to death on NY Subway

[QuickQuack]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6547281...

Putting somebody in a chokehold is strangling them. How on earth can somebody be killed by strangulation in full public view, and his killers not remanded in custody? By all accounts, he may have been acting "erratically" and shouting a bit, but that's not an excuse to kill someone! WTF was going on here??

[Crumpet]

There are some proper loons on the streets in major US cities; some of whom are really intimidating. Ordinarily you’d cross the street and avoid said individuals but trapped on a subway with them you’re at the mercy of their erratic behaviour. I’d guess the marine was trying to do the right thing and subdue him but it went somewhat wrong.

[markh1973]

Crumpet said:

There are some proper loons on the streets in major US cities; some of whom are really intimidating. Ordinarily you’d cross the street and avoid said individuals but trapped on a subway with them you’re at the mercy of their erratic behaviour. I’d guess the marine was trying to do the right thing and subdue him but it went somewhat wrong.

A chokehold for 5 seconds short of 3 minutes whilst two other people held his arms goes someway beyond subduing him.

[OutInTheShed]

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Unbalanced person acting violent and shouting suicidal self-harm type stuff?

Probably best to 'not see anything'?

'Suicide by cop' variation number 104, ''suicide by marine'?

[Al Gorithum]

I do know a bit a bit about strangulations (or choke-hold as described) as a Judo and Ju Jitsu practitioner. Approx 5 seconds when correctly applied is normally sufficient to render someone unconscious. Starve the brain of oxygen for too long and death will be the outcome.

We don't know the context etc but it seems that the Marine used excessive force, although it's probably no loss.

[768]

markh1973 said:

A chokehold for 5 seconds short of 3 minutes whilst two other people held his arms goes someway beyond subduing him.

That two other people had to hold his arms seems to suggest it wasn't actually subduing him. I've read he didn't actually die until he made it to the hospital and that he had a weapon which is why this started. I've also read that it went on for over 15 minutes. Not sure we're getting the full picture.

[gotoPzero]

Thats some long hair for the corps..

Anyway, to my eyes, it looks like the guy doing the choking is rolling the guy over slightly and keeping his shoulders rolled forward to keep his airway open but keeping control of his head to stop him smashing his head back.

The choke is not fully on (again to my eyes). You can see his chest rise and fall so he was breathing just fine. It looks like he is just trying to hold him there rather than choke him out.

As others have said if you put a proper rear naked choke on the person is going nappy nap within 5-10 seconds. This lasted 15 minutes, apparently.

In the video I saw you can hear one of the people say "he is not squeezing" in response to someone else saying he is choking him for too long.

Could have been positional asphyxia but the guy looked quite small so should have been on in that regard. Could have been drugs. Who knows.

[QuickQuack]

768 said:

markh1973 said:

A chokehold for 5 seconds short of 3 minutes whilst two other people held his arms goes someway beyond subduing him.

That two other people had to hold his arms seems to suggest it wasn't actually subduing him. I've read he didn't actually die until he made it to the hospital and that he had a weapon which is why this started. I've also read that it went on for over 15 minutes. Not sure we're getting the full picture.

What you've read seems to be wrong then,read the BBC article. The video shows the chokehold goes on for 2 minutes 55 seconds, and he's dead at the end of it.

Brain, starved of oxygen, dies very quickly. You can hold your breath for a long time because your blood holds quite a lot of oxygen and continues to flow to your brain, but if you stop all blood flow by compressing the carotid arteries, you'll lose consciousness and be subdued within seconds. Much longer, and you'll die. That seems to have been precisely what happened here.

[QuickQuack]

gotoPzero said:

Thats some long hair for the corps..

Anyway, to my eyes, it looks like the guy doing the choking is rolling the guy over slightly and keeping his shoulders rolled forward to keep his airway open but keeping control of his head to stop him smashing his head back.

The choke is not fully on (again to my eyes). You can see his chest rise and fall so he was breathing just fine. It looks like he is just trying to hold him there rather than choke him out.

As others have said if you put a proper rear naked choke on the person is going nappy nap within 5-10 seconds. This lasted 15 minutes, apparently.

In the video I saw you can hear one of the people say "he is not squeezing" in response to someone else saying he is choking him for too long.

Could have been positional asphyxia but the guy looked quite small so should have been on in that regard. Could have been drugs. Who knows.

It's not asphyxia - lack of breathing - that kills in this hold, it's cessation of cerebral blood flow. Totally different mechanisms.

[gotoPzero]

QuickQuack said:

gotoPzero said:

Thats some long hair for the corps..

Anyway, to my eyes, it looks like the guy doing the choking is rolling the guy over slightly and keeping his shoulders rolled forward to keep his airway open but keeping control of his head to stop him smashing his head back.

The choke is not fully on (again to my eyes). You can see his chest rise and fall so he was breathing just fine. It looks like he is just trying to hold him there rather than choke him out.

As others have said if you put a proper rear naked choke on the person is going nappy nap within 5-10 seconds. This lasted 15 minutes, apparently.

In the video I saw you can hear one of the people say "he is not squeezing" in response to someone else saying he is choking him for too long.

Could have been positional asphyxia but the guy looked quite small so should have been on in that regard. Could have been drugs. Who knows.

It's not asphyxia - lack of breathing - that kills in this hold, it's cessation of cerebral blood flow. Totally different mechanisms.

I get that I was more referring to what else it could have been with the asphyxia because I dont think the choke was on, or enough to cause carotid compression. I was just saying positional asphyxia could have been a problem if it really was 15 minutes, but he was a smaller guy so maybe not. Hard to tell from a 20 second clip I guess.

[OutInTheShed]

QuickQuack said:

It's not asphyxia - lack of breathing - that kills in this hold, it's cessation of cerebral blood flow. Totally different mechanisms.

Bit of a tangent really, but I thought asphyxia included lack of oxygen to the brain?

[QuickQuack]

OutInTheShed said:

QuickQuack said:

It's not asphyxia - lack of breathing - that kills in this hold, it's cessation of cerebral blood flow. Totally different mechanisms.

Bit of a tangent really, but I thought asphyxia included lack of oxygen to the brain?

Lack of oxygen to the brain is the final result of all modes death, but they achieve it by different means. Asphyxia is lack of breathing or lack of inspiratory oxygen, so there is still blood flowing to the brain. Oxygen levels in flowing blood drop quite gradually, so it takes much longer to lose consciousness, and you can hold your breath for several minutes without passing out.

Lack of blood flow is very different. Brain, unlike many other organs, is uniquely sensitive to lack of blood flow, it has absolutely no reserve. Blood flow ceases, and you lose consciousness within seconds. Stop blood flow to your leg for an hour, release it, and it'd be absolutely fine, but your brain will have been fried in the first few minutes.

[IanH755]

QuickQuack said:

768 said:

markh1973 said:

A chokehold for 5 seconds short of 3 minutes whilst two other people held his arms goes someway beyond subduing him.

That two other people had to hold his arms seems to suggest it wasn't actually subduing him. I've read he didn't actually die until he made it to the hospital and that he had a weapon which is why this started. I've also read that it went on for over 15 minutes. Not sure we're getting the full picture.

What you've read seems to be wrong then,read the BBC article. The video shows the chokehold goes on for 2 minutes 55 seconds, and he's dead at the end of it.

I think the confusion over his "time of death" comes from him only being declared Dead by the hospital about an hour after the incident, but there's images of the police attempting CPR whilst he's still on the train so he very likely was dead/dying by the end of the video but only "legally" able to be declared dead at a later time by a Doc in the hospital.

[MBVitoria]

I know nothing about US law but in the UK you could be questioned and released, pending further investigation and then subsequently arrested, charged and convicted.

[Louis Balfour]

Crumpet said:

There are some proper loons on the streets in major US cities;.

Just back from NYC. It felt WAY safer than here.

[Castrol for a knave]

The person who died was a homeless guy, who did Michael Jackson dance routines on the sidewalk to earn cash.

His mother was murdered and her body stuffed in a suitcase when he was a kid.

Unsurpisingly, he had mental health issues.

[anonymous-user]

Castrol for a knave said:

The person who died was a homeless guy, who did Michael Jackson dance routines on the sidewalk to earn cash.

His mother was murdered and her body stuffed in a suitcase when he was a kid.

Unsurpisingly, he had mental health issues.

A homeless guy with 40+ arrests, an outstanding arrest warrant, with a history of violent assault including trying to push people onto the tracks

[MarkJS]

Louis Balfour said:

Crumpet said:

There are some proper loons on the streets in major US cities;.

Just back from NYC. It felt WAY safer than here.

I concur. I was in London last weekend and there were numerous idiots on the tube (and the streets). One of them was a guy who was pacing up and down one of the carriages randomly screaming at other passengers.

[Castrol for a knave]

wsurfa said:

Castrol for a knave said:

The person who died was a homeless guy, who did Michael Jackson dance routines on the sidewalk to earn cash.

His mother was murdered and her body stuffed in a suitcase when he was a kid.

Unsurpisingly, he had mental health issues.

A homeless guy with 40+ arrests, an outstanding arrest warrant, with a history of violent assault including trying to push people onto the tracks

Arrests and warrants for someone homeless and with mental health issues is not unusual.

Where did you read he had previous for pushing people onto tracks? Read a few sources, incl DM, and no mention of this.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

wsurfa said:

A homeless guy with 40+ arrests, an outstanding arrest warrant, with a history of violent assault including trying to push people onto the tracks

It's one of "those" incidents. He could have been firing a machine gun into a crowd of school children and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to those who have an axe to grind.