GWR fined for death of passenger
Discussion
“ a yellow warning label above the window bearing the words 'Caution do not lean out of window when train is moving' was an insufficient deterrent.”
Sorry for the lady but, drunk woman sticks her head out of train and dies - train company fined £1,000,000.
Had those type of windows on slam door trains since the 70s, when I used to get the train to school on them daily, so hardly needs some special risk assessment b
ks. Should a train company really be fined for the basic fact that a window could be opened, and passengers could lean out? What happened to personal responsibility? This is why we have no functional windows on public transport or buildings any more.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20ej7rkj3ko
Sorry for the lady but, drunk woman sticks her head out of train and dies - train company fined £1,000,000.
Had those type of windows on slam door trains since the 70s, when I used to get the train to school on them daily, so hardly needs some special risk assessment b
ks. Should a train company really be fined for the basic fact that a window could be opened, and passengers could lean out? What happened to personal responsibility? This is why we have no functional windows on public transport or buildings any more.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20ej7rkj3ko
There's pretty clearly a level of personal responsibility on the poor girl who died but I think it depends whether you think some of the responsibility also lies with GWR if they had identified things that could and should have been done to prevent it from happening but failed to do them.
I know if I lick my fingers and stick them in a plug socket I'll probably die so I don't do it - a toddler doesn't know that so that doesn't absolve the companies who make plug sockets from meeting a basic set of safety requirements to minimise the risk of it happening if someone was to try it.
A drop window is a risk to people other than grown adults.
The fact people do daft things doesn't and shouldn't absolve companies of being expected to take sensible steps to minimise risk.
I know if I lick my fingers and stick them in a plug socket I'll probably die so I don't do it - a toddler doesn't know that so that doesn't absolve the companies who make plug sockets from meeting a basic set of safety requirements to minimise the risk of it happening if someone was to try it.
A drop window is a risk to people other than grown adults.
The fact people do daft things doesn't and shouldn't absolve companies of being expected to take sensible steps to minimise risk.
What could gwr do? The only answer which has been known for 50+ years is don’t have windows that open. It’s as simple as that. In which case why didn’t legislation governing type of trains etc forbid opening windows etc ie how far back do you want to go to blame somebody - gwr could blame legislators.
butchstewie said:
There's pretty clearly a level of personal responsibility on the poor girl who died but I think it depends whether you think some of the responsibility also lies with GWR if they had identified things that could and should have been done to prevent it from happening but failed to do them.
I know if I lick my fingers and stick them in a plug socket I'll probably die so I don't do it - a toddler doesn't know that so that doesn't absolve the companies who make plug sockets from meeting a basic set of safety requirements to minimise the risk of it happening if someone was to try it.
A drop window is a risk to people other than grown adults.
The fact people do daft things doesn't and shouldn't absolve companies of being expected to take sensible steps to minimise risk.
A toddler probably wouldn't be able to reach the window, nor be strong enough to lower it.I know if I lick my fingers and stick them in a plug socket I'll probably die so I don't do it - a toddler doesn't know that so that doesn't absolve the companies who make plug sockets from meeting a basic set of safety requirements to minimise the risk of it happening if someone was to try it.
A drop window is a risk to people other than grown adults.
The fact people do daft things doesn't and shouldn't absolve companies of being expected to take sensible steps to minimise risk.
Having a yellow warning saying "don't stick your head out of a moving train" is taking a step to minimise risk to anyone who can read English.
Perhaps they should show this scene to everyone entering the train so they realise what can happen if you stick things out of the window.
If someone else opened the window (as happened here) it's quite possible a child could have leaned out of it.
Like I said there's clearly a large chunk of personal responsibility here but that doesn't remove some responsibility from the rail operators.
The full report is here.
Fatal accident involving a train passenger at Twerton 1 December 2018
Guessing it takes a long time for action to be taken?
Like I said there's clearly a large chunk of personal responsibility here but that doesn't remove some responsibility from the rail operators.
The full report is here.
Fatal accident involving a train passenger at Twerton 1 December 2018
Guessing it takes a long time for action to be taken?
The fact that someone was paid to write a 33 page report on how to stop people sticking their heads out of the window on a moving train sounds like something from Yes Minister.
They have now changed the signs from yellow to red, which is good. Now nobody will think that sticking their heads out of the window on a moving train is a sensible idea.
Train companies (or anyone else) shouldn't be expected to put much effort into accounting for people doing such obviously stupid things as this because if this is the standard then nothing will ever be done.
They have now changed the signs from yellow to red, which is good. Now nobody will think that sticking their heads out of the window on a moving train is a sensible idea.
Train companies (or anyone else) shouldn't be expected to put much effort into accounting for people doing such obviously stupid things as this because if this is the standard then nothing will ever be done.
We used to have doors on trains that you could open when the train was in motion. There were probably accidents but not newsworthy as in those days individuals had some responsibility for their actions.
Then the inside handle was blanked off so you had to open the window to operate the handle on the outside of the door. see above.
Then came central door locking . . . One individual died after chasing a train pulling away, getting onto the step, and finding he couldn’t open the door because it was locked. IIRC the family sued and lost.
Some people need a permanent minder.
Then the inside handle was blanked off so you had to open the window to operate the handle on the outside of the door. see above.
Then came central door locking . . . One individual died after chasing a train pulling away, getting onto the step, and finding he couldn’t open the door because it was locked. IIRC the family sued and lost.
Some people need a permanent minder.
It's deep into protecting people from their own stupidity. Still, they'd identified it already as a risk they needed to mitigate and they hadn't yet acted.
Looks like it was the door at the end of the carriages they used to run on 125 services. Surprised to see they're still in use. I used to go to school on trains like that 40 years ago. In fact we used to frequently ride on the old slam door three carriage trains. Those let you do daft stuff like try to get on after the train had started to move, and everyone opened the doors before the train had stopped to save a few seconds. One kid was hanging out the open window when some wag thought it would be funny to open the door. So the door swung open taking the kid with it still hung over the window. Probably doing 40mph. Fortunately the door swung back a bit and we managed to pull it back closed. If we'd gone past a signal or a sign ...
Looks like it was the door at the end of the carriages they used to run on 125 services. Surprised to see they're still in use. I used to go to school on trains like that 40 years ago. In fact we used to frequently ride on the old slam door three carriage trains. Those let you do daft stuff like try to get on after the train had started to move, and everyone opened the doors before the train had stopped to save a few seconds. One kid was hanging out the open window when some wag thought it would be funny to open the door. So the door swung open taking the kid with it still hung over the window. Probably doing 40mph. Fortunately the door swung back a bit and we managed to pull it back closed. If we'd gone past a signal or a sign ...
CoolHands said:
a yellow warning label above the window bearing the words 'Caution do not lean out of window when train is moving' was an insufficient deterrent.
Sorry for the lady but, drunk woman sticks her head out of train and dies - train company fined £1,000,000.
Had those type of windows on slam door trains since the 70s, when I used to get the train to school on them daily, so hardly needs some special risk assessment bks. Should a train company really be fined for the basic fact that a window could be opened, and passengers could lean out? What happened to personal responsibility? This is why we have no functional windows on public transport or buildings any more.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20ej7rkj3ko
This is what always pops into my mind when I see those signs...Sorry for the lady but, drunk woman sticks her head out of train and dies - train company fined £1,000,000.
Had those type of windows on slam door trains since the 70s, when I used to get the train to school on them daily, so hardly needs some special risk assessment b
ks. Should a train company really be fined for the basic fact that a window could be opened, and passengers could lean out? What happened to personal responsibility? This is why we have no functional windows on public transport or buildings any more.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20ej7rkj3ko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcoWdrerLdU
trails said:
This is what always pops into my mind when I see those signs...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcoWdrerLdU
Glad it's not just me, after seeing that at a fairly young age I have absolutely no desire to stick my head out of a train window when it's moving.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcoWdrerLdU
miniman said:
Stupid is as stupid does.
A nice million pound burden for the taxpayer as GWR is heavily subsidised and heading for re-nationalisation in the next couple of years. Last of the HSTs will be gone fairly soon now.
It should be law that fines come out of director bonuses. I'm pretty sure they would come up with a solution fairly quickly then.A nice million pound burden for the taxpayer as GWR is heavily subsidised and heading for re-nationalisation in the next couple of years. Last of the HSTs will be gone fairly soon now.
AlexC1981 said:
miniman said:
Stupid is as stupid does.
A nice million pound burden for the taxpayer as GWR is heavily subsidised and heading for re-nationalisation in the next couple of years. Last of the HSTs will be gone fairly soon now.
It should be law that fines come out of director bonuses. I'm pretty sure they would come up with a solution fairly quickly then.A nice million pound burden for the taxpayer as GWR is heavily subsidised and heading for re-nationalisation in the next couple of years. Last of the HSTs will be gone fairly soon now.
Would taking it from pension pots be quicker?
grumbledoak said:
It's largely FAFO on her part, but she has paid a steep price.
GWR are far from blameless here
similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
Heres why they were fined heavily. GWR are far from blameless here
similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
Failure to implement actions found in a RA.
Whilst the girl is at fault. GWR were negligent in their failure to implement actions or improvements in safety.
grumbledoak said:
GWR are far from blameless here
similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
Yeap I agree, I believe thats why the large fine was applied, because of the past history of GWR doing nothing substantive when they were told to take action previously. similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
However, for me It still doesn't take away from the personal responsibility of the woman involved, and I make no apologies for this, who I think was a ****ing idiot - warning signs everywhere, still did something that the warning signs said specifically DO NOT DO THIS, paid the price - its pure Darwinism at work. Hopefully her very public death will be a warning to others not to do something so dumb.
I'm amazed that we even have to say that but, here we are I guess.
sam.rog said:
grumbledoak said:
It's largely FAFO on her part, but she has paid a steep price.
GWR are far from blameless here
similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
Heres why they were fined heavily. GWR are far from blameless here
similar incident 2016
recommendations May 2017
GWR risk assessment Sept 2017
actions not implemented
her death December 2018
Failure to implement actions found in a RA.
Whilst the girl is at fault. GWR were negligent in their failure to implement actions or improvements in safety.
ks. Even having a RA is bks - it s a window, you can stick your head out of it. The solution is don t have a window that functions. Hardly rocket science and takes nanoseconds to come up with.I don t think the travelling population should have non-opening windows because of the odd mistake from some individuals. I recognise that is not an acceptable stance these days though, as we must mollycoddle to the lowest common denominator. And no new trains have windows that open.
If gwr still run these trains they re going to have to spend many man-hours (£) having fitters disassemble the doors to lock up the windows.
Edited by CoolHands on Sunday 5th October 10:52
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