HS2 - time to pull the plug
Discussion
So costs have escalated from £31 billion to over £101 billion and will no doubt end up even higher.
How do public projects in the UK always go way over budget and never completed on time?
I know we’re not alone - even Germany failed with their new Berlin airport and by the time it was nearing completion, all of the IT kit was out of date.
I think it’s time to pull the plug before any more money is wasted - it’s already not achieved what it was originally set out to do and they’re even talking about reducing speed limits to save costs.
What an absolute waste of taxpayers money.
How do public projects in the UK always go way over budget and never completed on time?
I know we’re not alone - even Germany failed with their new Berlin airport and by the time it was nearing completion, all of the IT kit was out of date.
I think it’s time to pull the plug before any more money is wasted - it’s already not achieved what it was originally set out to do and they’re even talking about reducing speed limits to save costs.
What an absolute waste of taxpayers money.
Boxster5 said:
So costs have escalated from £31 billion to over £101 billion and will no doubt end up even higher.
How do public projects in the UK always go way over budget and never completed on time?
I know we re not alone - even Germany failed with their new Berlin airport and by the time it was nearing completion, all of the IT kit was out of date.
I think it s time to pull the plug before any more money is wasted - it s already not achieved what it was originally set out to do and they re even talking about reducing speed limits to save costs.
What an absolute waste of taxpayers money.
Nimbys are not cheap to own. How do public projects in the UK always go way over budget and never completed on time?
I know we re not alone - even Germany failed with their new Berlin airport and by the time it was nearing completion, all of the IT kit was out of date.
I think it s time to pull the plug before any more money is wasted - it s already not achieved what it was originally set out to do and they re even talking about reducing speed limits to save costs.
What an absolute waste of taxpayers money.
Way to throw away the £40bn (ish) we ve spent to date.
We re too far into it now to pull the plug but its legacy should be a lesson in nimbyism, government interference, changes to its scope and plan and its use as a political football.
Will be a welcome addition to the rail network once it s FULLY built and will provide much needed capacity to the existing railway, especially on the WCML, but it should also be held up as an example of how not to build a railway.
Mind you, the Lower Thames Crossing seems to be another farce. Over £1bn spent on planning and development costs and a shovel has yet hit the ground.
We really need to take a long hard look at planning in this country especially when it comes to national projects.
We re too far into it now to pull the plug but its legacy should be a lesson in nimbyism, government interference, changes to its scope and plan and its use as a political football.
Will be a welcome addition to the rail network once it s FULLY built and will provide much needed capacity to the existing railway, especially on the WCML, but it should also be held up as an example of how not to build a railway.
Mind you, the Lower Thames Crossing seems to be another farce. Over £1bn spent on planning and development costs and a shovel has yet hit the ground.
We really need to take a long hard look at planning in this country especially when it comes to national projects.
t if a single train ever runs, let alone quicker than before 
The Chinese would have had this done in 3 years - start to end.
Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
valiant said:
Will be a welcome addition to the rail network once it s FULLY built and will provide much needed capacity to the existing railway, especially on the WCML, but it should also be held up as an example of how not to build a railway.
Problem is, it will NOT be built as per its original intention so it’s a complete red herring.Money would have been better spent creating a new Hull to Liverpool link taking in all of the populous areas along that route - you could call it Northern Powerhouse - oh wait :banghead
gotoPzero said:
The Chinese would have had this done in 3 years - start to end.
Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
It’s easy if planning consists of ‘move or we’ll move you’ and ‘it’s happening, deal with it’.Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
A massive part of the increase is that a large section of tunnel had to be built that wasn’t originally planned for to satisfy locals.
And the journey time benefits are very much secondary to increasing capacity. Unfortunately, it was sold as improved journey times by idiots and it’s stuck but it’s capacity that’s the real benefit.
Boxster5 said:
valiant said:
Will be a welcome addition to the rail network once it s FULLY built and will provide much needed capacity to the existing railway, especially on the WCML, but it should also be held up as an example of how not to build a railway.
Problem is, it will NOT be built as per its original intention so it s a complete red herring.Money would have been better spent creating a new Hull to Liverpool link taking in all of the populous areas along that route - you could call it Northern Powerhouse - oh wait :banghead
The onward connection to half of the country is then at regular speed. By the time you change trains it might end up being slower.
gotoPzero said:
Boxster5 said:
valiant said:
Will be a welcome addition to the rail network once it s FULLY built and will provide much needed capacity to the existing railway, especially on the WCML, but it should also be held up as an example of how not to build a railway.
Problem is, it will NOT be built as per its original intention so it s a complete red herring.Money would have been better spent creating a new Hull to Liverpool link taking in all of the populous areas along that route - you could call it Northern Powerhouse - oh wait :banghead
The onward connection to half of the country is then at regular speed. By the time you change trains it might end up being slower.
Have you seen the cost/timeline for repairing the houses of parliament?!
Options include a full relocation for 24 years (£15.6 billion) or staged repairs over 61 years (£39 billion), alongside a £3 billion initial work package.
As for HS2, just get it built. Big projects will span multiple governments which is why they don't like doing them as a particular government will get blamed for 'wasting' money yet have nothing to show for it during their time in office. And you can be sure whatever government is in power when it's complete will take full credit for it and blame it being over budget on previous governments.
Options include a full relocation for 24 years (£15.6 billion) or staged repairs over 61 years (£39 billion), alongside a £3 billion initial work package.
As for HS2, just get it built. Big projects will span multiple governments which is why they don't like doing them as a particular government will get blamed for 'wasting' money yet have nothing to show for it during their time in office. And you can be sure whatever government is in power when it's complete will take full credit for it and blame it being over budget on previous governments.
Megaflow said:
The price is one thing, but how can it take another 13 years to finish building it? That s just beyond mental!
I have to say, it's actually not the astronomical costs that have most interested me in reading up on HS2 today but actually how far away we still are from the first trains. I honestly thought/assumed/presumed it was a lot closer given how long HS2 has been a thing. Incredible.
gotoPzero said:
The Chinese would have had this done in 3 years - start to end.
Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
This railway is going from A to B, we need a viaduct to make it nice and level so destroy anything in the way.Their method of building over land rather than on the land is 10 times better, cheaper and faster to build.
Yes very long term its going to need serious repair work but when its 10 times faster to build it really does not matter as they know technology will have moved on in 100 years. China has built around 2500km of high speed rail a year, every year for 20 years. And we struggle to get 200km done in that time. In fact not struggle. Cant.
What is more staggering is the companies that have turned over this cash and taken the profits for years and years. I expect there will be engineers and designers etc who retire before this is done.
What a total mess. Personally I think its totally pointless - all this to save what is going to end up being a few tens of minutes. We would have been better of digging an empty tunnel from London to Birmingham and then waiting for Maglev tech to improve and chuck it in when its ready. This is exactly how Japan are doing it between Tokyo and Osaka.
When its finally open, because they have to follow through now a ticket will be £500 or something stupid.
(c) UK 1840's.
It wasn't intended as a passenger service primarily, it was supposed to run from the capital to our industrial heartlands in t'north ferrying freight back and forth, easing road haulage.
But...we don't have any industry, and we are never going to compete with cheap imports.
So TLDR...its largely obsolete before a train ever touches the rails.
But...we don't have any industry, and we are never going to compete with cheap imports.
So TLDR...its largely obsolete before a train ever touches the rails.
It is a great example of how things have gone wrong IMO. Big infrastructure projects like that need a vision that is committed to and a political class who are willing to back it and burn through some good will to get it done.
There's a balance to be struck of course and I am not suggesting *any* big infrastructure project deserves that treatment, but lots do - without them the UK stagnates while the competition roars on.
There's a balance to be struck of course and I am not suggesting *any* big infrastructure project deserves that treatment, but lots do - without them the UK stagnates while the competition roars on.
Read earlier that with the £100B+ you could have employed between 250,000 - 275,000 police officers/ nurses/ fire fighters for 10 years!!!
And whilst we the taxpayer are £40b in to it already, what is the saying about throwing good money after bad? Seems a pretty accurate assessment of this whole debacle.
And whilst we the taxpayer are £40b in to it already, what is the saying about throwing good money after bad? Seems a pretty accurate assessment of this whole debacle.
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