University no longer worth it (for some)
Discussion
I doubt the value of a poll which asks for opinions on whether graduates end up better off than they would have been without a degree, or which asks for opinions on the value f the time and money a degree costs. These are questions that can be answered objectively using empirical data, surely.
How times changed.
Back in the mid-80s I don't think there was a single pupil from my school who went to university after sixth form. Even then sixth form was pretty small in numbers.
Then everybody seemed to have a gap year then 'go to uni'.
Then everybody did some crap degrees in something or other and get in loads of debt.
No people are realising it may not be worth it for some.
Well I never.
Back in the mid-80s I don't think there was a single pupil from my school who went to university after sixth form. Even then sixth form was pretty small in numbers.
Then everybody seemed to have a gap year then 'go to uni'.
Then everybody did some crap degrees in something or other and get in loads of debt.
No people are realising it may not be worth it for some.
Well I never.
When I did my degree in the mid-late 80's (under the "old system") about 10% of 18 year olds went on to do a degree.
When we finished, about 10% of jobs were graduate jobs, so after a bit of searching and wiggling, most got into a job
they wanted to do, or near to what they wanted as a stepping stone to what they wanted. Everything worked just fine.
Then Blair decided we needed a more educated workforce - can't argue with that - and that 50+% of 18 year olds should
be going to Uni like they do in the mediterranean countries. What he failed to appreciate or chose to ignore was that these
countries have extremely high graduate unemployment. This is why London hotels are full of Greek, Italian, Spanish
grads, trying to improve their already pretty good English while they look for something better here, because there is
nothing back home.
To make this possible, the old grant system had to go and everything has been royally b
ksed up ever since.
When we finished, about 10% of jobs were graduate jobs, so after a bit of searching and wiggling, most got into a job
they wanted to do, or near to what they wanted as a stepping stone to what they wanted. Everything worked just fine.
Then Blair decided we needed a more educated workforce - can't argue with that - and that 50+% of 18 year olds should
be going to Uni like they do in the mediterranean countries. What he failed to appreciate or chose to ignore was that these
countries have extremely high graduate unemployment. This is why London hotels are full of Greek, Italian, Spanish
grads, trying to improve their already pretty good English while they look for something better here, because there is
nothing back home.
To make this possible, the old grant system had to go and everything has been royally b
ksed up ever since.It becomes a chicken and egg situation.
More people go to uni to get a degree to get the job, while the jobs market is seeing more people with degrees and "only wants the best" so applies more criteria to the role. Therefore jobs which in the past didn't need a degree now do need a degree and so more people go to uni to get the degrees they need for jobs which in the past didn't need one.
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
Not sure what the answer is to this, but it's not working very well for students or the taxpayer. The only people it's really working for are the university sector which expanded massively since the early 2000's on the back of many more students.
More people go to uni to get a degree to get the job, while the jobs market is seeing more people with degrees and "only wants the best" so applies more criteria to the role. Therefore jobs which in the past didn't need a degree now do need a degree and so more people go to uni to get the degrees they need for jobs which in the past didn't need one.
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
Not sure what the answer is to this, but it's not working very well for students or the taxpayer. The only people it's really working for are the university sector which expanded massively since the early 2000's on the back of many more students.
Condi said:
It becomes a chicken and egg situation.
More people go to uni to get a degree to get the job, while the jobs market is seeing more people with degrees and "only wants the best" so applies more criteria to the role. Therefore jobs which in the past didn't need a degree now do need a degree and so more people go to uni to get the degrees they need for jobs which in the past didn't need one.
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
Not sure what the answer is to this, but it's not working very well for students or the taxpayer. The only people it's really working for are the university sector which expanded massively since the early 2000's on the back of many more students.
I think it is worse than this. Employers post job ads online and deluged with applications many of which are wholly unsuitable. The first AI filter they often use is 'Do they have a degree?' A really blunt instrument but it takes alot of hours to have a human sift through hundreds of applications.More people go to uni to get a degree to get the job, while the jobs market is seeing more people with degrees and "only wants the best" so applies more criteria to the role. Therefore jobs which in the past didn't need a degree now do need a degree and so more people go to uni to get the degrees they need for jobs which in the past didn't need one.
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
Not sure what the answer is to this, but it's not working very well for students or the taxpayer. The only people it's really working for are the university sector which expanded massively since the early 2000's on the back of many more students.
Maybe a better way for some jobs would to change the filter to remove the applcants that are over qualified.
Two of my 3 kids have been through this over the last 3 years and it is soul destroying for them (and they have degrees) so must be worse for those without them. But we now have a recruitment system that is partially automated and skewed towards graduates and our kids are forced to play the game.
Solutions:
-Revert some of the crap unis back to polytechnic
-Only allow certain subjects to have degrees. The rest can be vocational.
-Too many universities have easier exams in same subject yet award same qualification (degree)
-Only provide state funding to maths/science/medicine/engineering (law, history etc can pay for themselves/loans). Economics self funding too.
The previous point allows the state to fund students who are worth it.
-No student loans for overseas students
-Revert some of the crap unis back to polytechnic
-Only allow certain subjects to have degrees. The rest can be vocational.
-Too many universities have easier exams in same subject yet award same qualification (degree)
-Only provide state funding to maths/science/medicine/engineering (law, history etc can pay for themselves/loans). Economics self funding too.
The previous point allows the state to fund students who are worth it.
-No student loans for overseas students
It's only going to get worse. Businesses are already starting to accept mediocre LLMs over humans - even humans they already employ.
You go to uni to learn how to think - regardless of the subject matter. If the ability to think is no longer valued, what is the point in going? Why saddle yourself with an additional 9% tax for 40 years, or whatever it is now, when the skills you've learned are now "useless" to the powers that be? You've got to be on 75K+ to start actually paying down the loan - what proportion of jobs are going to offer that early enough in your career for you to have a chance to pay it back?
And what happens when the next generation realise this? Who props up the UKs scientific research (one of the things we are best in the world at) Are the government going to start funding the universities directly? Seems unlikely.
It feels like the system is about to fall apart - unless someone throws the next generation a bone.
You go to uni to learn how to think - regardless of the subject matter. If the ability to think is no longer valued, what is the point in going? Why saddle yourself with an additional 9% tax for 40 years, or whatever it is now, when the skills you've learned are now "useless" to the powers that be? You've got to be on 75K+ to start actually paying down the loan - what proportion of jobs are going to offer that early enough in your career for you to have a chance to pay it back?
And what happens when the next generation realise this? Who props up the UKs scientific research (one of the things we are best in the world at) Are the government going to start funding the universities directly? Seems unlikely.
It feels like the system is about to fall apart - unless someone throws the next generation a bone.
The Gauge said:
Just think of all the abandoned city centre university student accommodation buildings in years to come. I can't see them being suitable for being repurposed.
Those around me are plush apartments. In fact, many with gyms, bar areas with pool tables, study areas and often plusher than non-student apartments. And more expensive. Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 2nd June 19:07
This seems to me to be a combination of two factors. Firstly many graduates going into employment that doesn't really require a degree. Secondly the restructuring of student loan repayments to effectively become a graduate tax.
The logical response is to seek a non-degree route into office work, if that is what you want. Accountancy offers this route via AAT apprenticeships and imo that is a model for the future.
Of course many people don't want office work at all and the Blairite drive to put more young people into universities has led to many manual skills being better paid than jobs that now require a degree. Again this will be a rebalancing and many young people will learn vocational skills that don't saddle them with £30k+ of debt that will likely never be fully repaid.
The logical response is to seek a non-degree route into office work, if that is what you want. Accountancy offers this route via AAT apprenticeships and imo that is a model for the future.
Of course many people don't want office work at all and the Blairite drive to put more young people into universities has led to many manual skills being better paid than jobs that now require a degree. Again this will be a rebalancing and many young people will learn vocational skills that don't saddle them with £30k+ of debt that will likely never be fully repaid.
The Gauge said:
Just think of all the abandoned city centre university student accommodation buildings in years to come. I can't see them being suitable for being repurposed.
If that happens, which I doubt, they could be used for a variety of things for those needing shelter.If students can use them, why couldn't the homeless or those needing council accommodation/shelter...
As for uni...
Renaming Poly's was a mistake. Alternative education paths should never have been stigmatised in any way.
Loans don't start getting repaid until people are earning well, so that's not really the big issue that gets raised. Most won't get repaid.
And I agree with tele that the government should fully fund STEM and a few others, and load non-courses with costs further. A far too simplistic view on further and higher education has been taken on the basis that if graduates do better later in life, then encouraging everyone to be graduates must ensure everyone does better later in life. It's primary school logic.
Condi said:
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
It's 40 years now (Plan 5). It's 100% a graduate tax of a flat 9% above the standard tax threshold. 9%!!!!!!! There goes your SIPP contribution. The job market for graduates is pretty dire at the moment.
Vikingette2 has been at interviews where some of the competitors graduated 2, 3, 4 years ago or had completed a masters.
So many grad jobs out there pay £33k in Central London, so factor in £6k London weighting and you're on not much more than minimum wage, all for your 3 or 4 years at Uni and a load of debt.
And rather than being pragmatic about the situation, many grads are simply biding their time until a magical unicorn job offer comes up because they now have a degree and are too good to do menial things. We had one girl join our firm for an admin role. She lasted one day and quit after telling everyone she was a grad and expected to do important things. Well, why apply for an admin role?
Vikingette2 has been at interviews where some of the competitors graduated 2, 3, 4 years ago or had completed a masters.
So many grad jobs out there pay £33k in Central London, so factor in £6k London weighting and you're on not much more than minimum wage, all for your 3 or 4 years at Uni and a load of debt.
And rather than being pragmatic about the situation, many grads are simply biding their time until a magical unicorn job offer comes up because they now have a degree and are too good to do menial things. We had one girl join our firm for an admin role. She lasted one day and quit after telling everyone she was a grad and expected to do important things. Well, why apply for an admin role?
dxg said:
Condi said:
All while racking up £30k in tuition fees (before any living costs), at a rate of interest which was for 10+ years RPI +3%. Essentially a graduate tax which they will only stop paying 30 years after they graduate, having paid more in interest than their course costs, and leaving the taxpayer to pick up whatever debt is left over.
It's 40 years now (Plan 5). It's 100% a graduate tax of a flat 9% above the standard tax threshold. 9%!!!!!!! There goes your SIPP contribution. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff